Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[Raynor]

You mean you have to prove that.

Let us look at your argument again:

1. if liking a bad guy is immoral

2. it would logically mean billions of people find some fun in reading about or watching bad guys would also be out slaughtering, raping and thieving

Since you have made said statement, the burden of proof lies on you to show the inevitability of the outcome. You need to prove that a certain liking will necessarily bring about the said actions. I am curious how.

However, if you insist that you have no burden of proof whatsoever, I will point that there is no known conditioning of human nature that necessarily drives a person to action based on a certain liking he has. Simply having a liking does not imply that the liking will translate into intention, which will translate into action. If you know of any such law of human nature, please provide it.

What I have argued from the begining is that if morality is defined as chosing between good and evil in any situation, then <<the argument that "chosing evil in fictional settings is somehow good or morally acceptable" is false>> is a truism.

[Durelin]

A person who "likes" Morgoth isn't "choosing evil," they're choosing to be (or they just happen to be) entertained by an evil character - entertained whether they just find him/her amusing, exciting, or even intellectually stimulating, etc., or all of the above.

Edit: I can see where you might say that crazy people who get really into the evil mindset could be "immoral," but then you have the argument of whether or not someone is actually choosing evil simply in a fantasy or if they're only actually choosing evil if they act on whatever "immoral/evil fantasy" they might have. Perhaps that's where the disagreement really lies? Or simply people are talking about two different sides of the spectrum....

[Raynor]

A person who "likes" Morgoth isn't "choosing evil," they're choosing to be (or they just happen to be) entertained by an evil character - entertained whether they just find him/her amusing, exciting, or even intellectually stimulating, etc., or all of the above.

However, it is one thing to say <<"I like amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" "and I admit that said evil guys may display them">> and totally another to say <<"I like Melkor because he is evil and that attracts me about him">>. Simply liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong; it is deligthing in evil (as I pointed out several times) that I consider it raises questions about morality.

I can see where you might say that crazy people who get really into the evil mindset could be "immoral," but then you have the argument of whether or not someone is actually choosing evil simply in a fantasy or if they're only actually choosing evil if they act on whatever "immoral/evil fantasy" they might have.

I am not sure I follow; can you please rephrase?

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Raynor

However, it is one thing to say <<"I like amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" "and I admit that said evil guys may display them">> and totally another to say <<"I like Melkor because he is evil and that attracts me about him">>. Simply liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong; it is deligthing in evil (as I pointed out several times) that I have a problem with.

Delighting in evil in the sense of having fun killing people? Then yes, I certainly agree.

I am not sure I follow; can you please rephrase?

Sorry! To think I express my thoughts better in writing than in spoken word...pretty scary...

Well, to put it simply: is thinking about killing someone evil, or is it only evil if you actually do it? And, is it evil in the same way? And...there are probably innumerable questions involved in that.

[Raynor]

Delighting in evil in the sense of having fun killing people? Then yes, I certainly agree.

Well, not fun in doing them was my point, but in "witnessing" instances of evil, in and of itself.

is thinking about killing someone evil, or is it only evil if you actually do it?

As I have argued, morality is defined first and foremost by intention.

I would also consider Tolkien's own statements:

Originally Posted by Footnotes to Melkor /Morgoth, Myths Transformed

Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.

therefore, an good intention defines the morality of the action, almost regardless of consequences [Edit: and this is why I consider that Tolkien stated in letter #246 that "To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve." - good intent saves, but it requires full cooperation/dedication]

Originally Posted by Letter #181

I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge.

therefore, an evil intent defines the morality of an action as evil, even if "macrocosmically" it may result in good.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I will point that there is no known conditioning of human nature that necessarily drives a person to action based on a certain liking he has. Simply having a liking does not imply that the liking will translate into intention, which will translate into action.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Simply liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong; it is deligthing in evil (as I pointed out several times) that I consider it raises questions about morality.

You've just killed your argument there. So you agree that liking a bad guy is not necessarily wrong!

Originally Posted by Durelin

Exploring the "dark side" intellectually is fun. You can even see if from a spiritual sort of view and see it as a way to deal with the "evil within us." We (general "we," and not necessarily the collective whole) delve into the mind of someone who we can look at and say is "evil," see their reasons for what they do, look at how they destroy themselves and others...all that jazz. We can understand their desire for power and the like, and considering we all know what anger and hatred is like to some degree, we can even begin to understand their reasons for destroying people, creatures, and things.

Very good point. That's possibly why we do like bad guys and find them thrilling to read about (probably why we enjoy thrillers and horror too). They provide a safe way to explore evil without having to be involved ourselves - in much the same way young girls have posters of 'pretty boy' popbands on their walls as a way of exploring boyfriends without having to have a real one. Even with the writer you can see the exploration taking place - Tolkien was known to write about his own nightmares, his own psyche, with instances such as Numenor's drowning, and he made a drawing of Maddo, his son's own nightmare creature(quite a scary drawing actually); in creating odd beings like Balrogs and Gollum and the Witch King he was able to explore his own concepts of Darkness on the page. His books are filled with marvellous moments of horror, clearly something he relished writing about, and he well knew the power of hints and 'things left unsaid'... No wonder readers thrill to it all.

[Raynor]

You've just killed your argument there. So you agree that liking a bad guy is not necessarily wrong!

So, instead of presenting any proof for your position you resort to distorting my argument? I have said "liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong" - but liking evil for evil is. If we can't agree on these two basic ideas, I don't think we will get anywhere on this part.

That's possibly why we do like bad guys and find them thrilling to read about (probably why we enjoy thrillers and horror too). They provide a safe way to explore evil without having to be involved ourselves

Again, a difference should be made between the utilitarian aspect of using art to exorcise various issues - and liking evil for evil's sake. The first offers no moral justification for the second.

Tolkien was known to write about his own nightmares, his own psyche, with instances such as Numenor's drowning, and he made a drawing of Maddo, his son's own nightmare creature(quite a scary drawing actually); in creating odd beings like Balrogs and Gollum and the Witch King he was able to explore his own concepts of Darkness on the page. His books are filled with marvellous moments of horror, clearly something he relished writing about, and he well knew the power of hints and 'things left unsaid'... No wonder readers thrill to it all.

What do you actually mean? That he enjoyed nightmares (and the likes) for what they were?? I am not aware that he has any 'morbid' propensities, or that, if he has, he is "ok" with them. Please clarify.