Words and Names in Tolkien's Work - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-09-2007, 08:31 PM

His Quenya name is Elwë Singollo, which sounds much more euphonious. Although I never found it particularly boring, I had noticed the similarity of Thingol and thingy before. I think I used the name Ereyu Thingy in one of the REB episodes, but I forget where.

I think that the real danger in examining Sindarin and Quenya names for real-world parallels is that the names as they stand now are the result of years of invention and development. They follow phonological and grammatical rules that Tolkien devised independently of individual names or characters, so that any search for correspondances is in danger of pointing out nothing but coincidences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #297

But I remain puzzled , and indeed sometimes irritated, by many of the guesses at the 'sources' of the nomenclature, and theories or fancies concerning hidden meanings. These seem to me no more than private amusements, and as such I have no right or power to object to them, though they are, I think, valueless for the elucidation or interpretation of my fiction...
the bulk of the nomenclature is constructed from these pre-existing [invented] languages, and where the resulting names have analysable meanings (as is usual) these are relevant solely to the fiction with which they are integrated. The 'source', if any, provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestions for its stimulus) and its purport in the source is totally irrelevant except in case of Earendil...

Since we already know about Eärendil, and since Thingol is pure Sindarin with a definite meaning in that language, I'll just throw the Telerin/Greek (the former intentionally, the latter coincidentally) name Teleporno into the mix and see what can be made of it.

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-10-2007, 04:02 AM

Interesting topic idea, Lal! I would like to add something from the German linguistic background - the word "Thing" is indeed an old word meaning ruling assembly or council, also the place where that assembly was held.

The annual meeting of the German Tolkien Society is called "Tolkien Thing" - a name which met with some puzzled laughs when I mentioned it to friends here.

There is also a "Thing Street" in the village where I live.

We do know that Tolkien knew the Germanic languages well and that they have some similar background to the Nordic languages which were an inspiration for his Elvish languages. It is possible that the idea of rulership was a part of the "leaf-mould" for Thingol's name. It's all speculation, of course, but when did we ever let that stop an interesting discussion?!

Lalwendë · 03-10-2007, 04:44 AM

Squatter - a bit of mere coincidence is no matter, I'm intending this to be fun. I was thinking partly about the fascinating speculation we had on the Chapter by Chapter threads; they gave me a lot of new ideas to ponder on, and we had some brief forays into words there. What do you reckon to a bit of fun with words?

Liking the reactions to the word thing! Especially the Tolkien Thing! I suppose it's a name which gets my attention due to the place-name Thingwall, a place where I have relatives - it's quite a spiky word I suppose, but I have always preferred the sound of Germanic words to Latin ones. Thingol being a more 'modern' variant of Singollo is interesting, suggesting a change in the actual way that the elves spoke - just make the sounds th and s and see the difference; the sound th is a much quieter sound, maybe suggesting a need to be quieter?

Teleporno is an odd name to me as it sounds Latin. Funnily enough while I was looking up Thingol I came eventually to the name Incanus for Gandalf which Tolkien had thought was maybe a bit too Latin (but which happily suggests incantation, a thing you imagine wizards engaging in...). Isn't tele Latin for 'vision' or 'sight'?

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-10-2007, 06:02 AM

I understand now, Lalwendë. It's always worth kicking these things off with a caveat or disclaimer of some sort, though. My arguments below should be taken as light-hearted musing.

I like þing, and in the place-names you mentioned we can see the effect on it of interaction between speakers of Norse and Celtic languages in Scotland and the North of England. It's in the mouths of speakers of Gaelic that þ becomes d, so the place-names preserve an idea of the cosmopolitan society, particularly of the North-West of England and southern Scotland in the early-medieval period. In the place-names you mentioned, the wall comes from Old Norse vǫllr: 'field', so that Dingwall is 'the field of the assembly'.

In the cultures that spoke Old Norse, the Thing was more than a political assembly: it was also a legal, mercantile and social event, often the only time that certain families would see one another before it was next held. The Icelandic Alþing was a great annual event, at which the Lawspeaker would recite from memory the laws of Iceland (Snorri Sturluson, author of the Prose Edda, was once Lawspeaker to the Althing). Legal cases were argued and judged, business was done and marriages and other social arrangements made. Any changes to the law were also discussed by senior figures. It's probable that there was also a religious element to the Althing before the advent of Christianity, and there is an account in Njals Saga of the period of crisis when the new faith was discussed there.

A thing, then, is more than a regional assembly in today's language; and in Iceland the Althing, with its courts and legal experts, stood in place of a king. It is a well-known story that Edward I once held a parliament under the Parliament Oak at Clipston in Sherwood Forest in 1282, and this is a perfect illustration of the idea that all that was required for a parliament was the presence of the king and his chief nobles at a given place. Returning to Thingwall, then: what if we regard Thingol's name as a corruption of Þingvǫllr? Being King of Doriath, he is the focal point of an assembly and therefore the field or place of the Thing. If we were inclined to translate his name using medieval languages, we could call it an oblique way of describing his central place in the lives of the Sindar of Doriath.

Teleporno, as I said, has a Greek form, and could be taken to be formed from telē-: 'far off, at a distance', and pornē: 'a prostitute' (this is the first element in pornography: lit. 'writing about prostitutes'). Analysing this meaning demonstrates quite neatly why this must have been a coincidence, although Tolkien surely knew enough Greek to realise how the name could be interpreted. It is, of course, the Telerin form of Celeborn, the name of Galadriel's consort. I don't think I need fill in the somewhat coarse direction my thoughts took after those realisations.

Lalwendë · 03-10-2007, 07:00 AM

That's the very thing I'm after Squatter!

Some great speculations and explorations of the words Tolkien created, in the spirit of the way he created and explored language!

The old sense of the word thing conjours up an air of the North, of older times, and in using it for the character of Thingol I get that feeling about him, as of an ancient king, authoritarian and distant. And as one of the senses of the word thing must include Authority, it's a fitting name to choose for the character.

It's interesting that a thing was very much a gathering as well as a parliament, suggesting a bringing together of people, and that was very much the purpose of Doriath, a place where many Elves were gathered together - including Dark Elves. It's also interesting that Thingol ruled over an older established community of Elves in Beleriand, one which was there before the Noldor came back in their blaze of glory; thing is the old word for parliament, the new one, brought with the arrival of Latin and French was indeed parliament! What I am getting at there is that in our own languages thing automatically suggests something older - making a poetic link to the older community of Elves ruled over by Thingol.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-10-2007, 07:24 AM

It might also be noted that a Thing was a more inclusive social event, whereas a parliament is a closed forum. I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak: a council of magnates and churchmen. Parliament, on the other hand derives from Old French parlement: 'speaking'. Speculating wildly, Tolkien might have found it significant that after the Norman conquest, a gathering of the Wise was replaced with a talking shop.

Lalwendë · 03-10-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squatter

I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak:

That brings up another new avenue to pursue.

witena gemot - assembly of the wise.

Which word in Tolkien's work does this suggest? To me, it's Ent Moot. I'm sure Squatter will know if gemot is the root of the word moot, I have the feeling that it is.

thing = Norse
moot = Anglo-Saxon

These are essentially similar in that they are both assemblies, the former being more of a gathering including all, the latter only for 'the wise'. That actually tallies nicely with thing corresponding to an older age (with Thingol's realm and the community he builds up) and moot to the Third Age. Of course, the Ents live close by the Rohirrim, a culture reminiscent of early Anglo-Saxon culture.

What about the word Ent meaning 'giant' in Old English?

03-10-2007, 04:44 AM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Squatter - a bit of mere coincidence is no matter, I'm intending this to be fun. I was thinking partly about the fascinating speculation we had on the Chapter by Chapter threads; they gave me a lot of new ideas to ponder on, and we had some brief forays into words there. What do you reckon to a bit of fun with words? Liking the reactions to the word thing! Especially the Tolkien Thing! I suppose it's a name which gets my attention due to the place-name Thingwall, a place where I have relatives - it's quite a spiky word I suppose, but I have always preferred the sound of Germanic words to Latin ones. Thingol being a more 'modern' variant of Singollo is interesting, suggesting a change in the actual way that the elves spoke - just make the sounds th and s and see the difference; the sound th is a much quieter sound, maybe suggesting a need to be quieter? Teleporno is an odd name to me as it sounds Latin. Funnily enough while I was looking up Thingol I came eventually to the name Incanus for Gandalf which Tolkien had thought was maybe a bit too Latin (but which happily suggests incantation, a thing you imagine wizards engaging in...). Isn't tele Latin for 'vision' or 'sight'? __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-10-2007, 06:02 AM	#4
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Politics and ladies of the night: the indivisible professions I understand now, Lalwendë. It's always worth kicking these things off with a caveat or disclaimer of some sort, though. My arguments below should be taken as light-hearted musing. I like þing, and in the place-names you mentioned we can see the effect on it of interaction between speakers of Norse and Celtic languages in Scotland and the North of England. It's in the mouths of speakers of Gaelic that þ becomes d, so the place-names preserve an idea of the cosmopolitan society, particularly of the North-West of England and southern Scotland in the early-medieval period. In the place-names you mentioned, the wall comes from Old Norse vǫllr: 'field', so that Dingwall is 'the field of the assembly'. In the cultures that spoke Old Norse, the Thing was more than a political assembly: it was also a legal, mercantile and social event, often the only time that certain families would see one another before it was next held. The Icelandic Alþing was a great annual event, at which the Lawspeaker would recite from memory the laws of Iceland (Snorri Sturluson, author of the Prose Edda, was once Lawspeaker to the Althing). Legal cases were argued and judged, business was done and marriages and other social arrangements made. Any changes to the law were also discussed by senior figures. It's probable that there was also a religious element to the Althing before the advent of Christianity, and there is an account in Njals Saga of the period of crisis when the new faith was discussed there. A thing, then, is more than a regional assembly in today's language; and in Iceland the Althing, with its courts and legal experts, stood in place of a king. It is a well-known story that Edward I once held a parliament under the Parliament Oak at Clipston in Sherwood Forest in 1282, and this is a perfect illustration of the idea that all that was required for a parliament was the presence of the king and his chief nobles at a given place. Returning to Thingwall, then: what if we regard Thingol's name as a corruption of Þingvǫllr? Being King of Doriath, he is the focal point of an assembly and therefore the field or place of the Thing. If we were inclined to translate his name using medieval languages, we could call it an oblique way of describing his central place in the lives of the Sindar of Doriath. Teleporno, as I said, has a Greek form, and could be taken to be formed from telē-: 'far off, at a distance', and pornē: 'a prostitute' (this is the first element in pornography: lit. 'writing about prostitutes'). Analysing this meaning demonstrates quite neatly why this must have been a coincidence, although Tolkien surely knew enough Greek to realise how the name could be interpreted. It is, of course, the Telerin form of Celeborn, the name of Galadriel's consort. I don't think I need fill in the somewhat coarse direction my thoughts took after those realisations. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 03-10-2007 at 07:09 AM. Reason: grammatical corrections

03-10-2007, 07:00 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	That's the very thing I'm after Squatter! Some great speculations and explorations of the words Tolkien created, in the spirit of the way he created and explored language! The old sense of the word thing conjours up an air of the North, of older times, and in using it for the character of Thingol I get that feeling about him, as of an ancient king, authoritarian and distant. And as one of the senses of the word thing must include Authority, it's a fitting name to choose for the character. It's interesting that a thing was very much a gathering as well as a parliament, suggesting a bringing together of people, and that was very much the purpose of Doriath, a place where many Elves were gathered together - including Dark Elves. It's also interesting that Thingol ruled over an older established community of Elves in Beleriand, one which was there before the Noldor came back in their blaze of glory; thing is the old word for parliament, the new one, brought with the arrival of Latin and French was indeed parliament! What I am getting at there is that in our own languages thing automatically suggests something older - making a poetic link to the older community of Elves ruled over by Thingol. __________________ Gordon's alive!

03-10-2007, 07:24 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Things, witans and parleys It might also be noted that a Thing was a more inclusive social event, whereas a parliament is a closed forum. I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak: a council of magnates and churchmen. Parliament, on the other hand derives from Old French parlement: 'speaking'. Speculating wildly, Tolkien might have found it significant that after the Norman conquest, a gathering of the Wise was replaced with a talking shop. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-10-2007, 04:02 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting topic idea, Lal! I would like to add something from the German linguistic background - the word "Thing" is indeed an old word meaning ruling assembly or council, also the place where that assembly was held. The annual meeting of the German Tolkien Society is called "Tolkien Thing" - a name which met with some puzzled laughs when I mentioned it to friends here. There is also a "Thing Street" in the village where I live. We do know that Tolkien knew the Germanic languages well and that they have some similar background to the Nordic languages which were an inspiration for his Elvish languages. It is possible that the idea of rulership was a part of the "leaf-mould" for Thingol's name. It's all speculation, of course, but when did we ever let that stop an interesting discussion?! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'