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03-11-2007, 05:28 PM | #161 |
A Mere Boggart
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And to follow on from what tgwbs says about how people have struggled to change the morality 'accepted' by society, what about those who go against the grain of a wider society which is, according to them, immoral? What about resistance fighters?
And we also have to think about who sets the moral tone of a society. Is it the majority opinion? Is it done by consensus? Or is it set by Authority? Which Authority? These are difficult questions which absolutism only prevents us from answering intelligently. All we can do if we are absolutist is run around in circles like dogs chasing our tails. Personally, I always bear Gandalf's words to Frodo in mind about not being hasty to judge. This is one of the most important things Tolkien tells us. Maybe those 'moral truths' which we hold most dear are the ones which we ought to question the most? There are things which I strongly believe are wrong, but merely my thinking them to be wrong doesn't achieve anything, it certainly doesn't help me to understand those who take the opposite view. Challenging our own moral assumptions does not mean we will end up with an amoral society as decisions will always be reached on what is best given the circumstances, but it does better equip us to be tolerant and to see situations from all sides. Not doing this leads to conflict. The Cold War was all about this, two 'sides' unable to see life as it was on the opposing side, unable to simply stop and question if they really did have it right, but all too ready to annihilate the world in the pursuit of defending their own moral agendas and 'strongly held beliefs'.
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03-11-2007, 05:54 PM | #162 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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And another thing....
Why would anyone side with the 'Bad Guys'? Because of the way they percieve the 'Good Guys'? I found this essay:Lord of the Rings as a Defence of Western Civilisation:http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:r...ient=firefox-a Which states: Quote:
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03-11-2007, 06:27 PM | #163 | ||||||
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With one caveat. If a person habitually delighted in, sympathised with and supported the evil acts of fictional characters, I would expect that to be relevant in any psychological assessment of that individual and, were there evidence of such behaviour, it would be relevant in any criminal prosecution of them for any serious crime which they might commit. As I said, such a pattern of behaviour is not illegal, and 9.99 times out of 10 it will not lead to dangerous behaviour. But, were it to do so, it would be considered relevant in assessing their state of mind. However, I know of no one who approaches fiction in this way, and I believe that there are very few people who do. Indeed, I strongly suspect that the views referred to in the opening post, which kicked of this debate, were not genuinely held but were merely "showing off". So, yes, it is largely irrelevant. Indeed, the "off topic" elements of this debate, concerning moral relativism and the application of systems of morality and ethics are of far more interest to me, particularly as it is an area in which I work. Quote:
Sometimes, however, moral judgments are required, even where there is no issue of law involved. To take an example with which I am professionally familiar, should a company do business in a country with a poor human rights record? There are arguments both ways. On one side, it might be argued that the company brings employment to people and treats them well as employees (assuming that it does), and also that bringing investment into the country might benefit its people and even, ultimately, lead to a change in the regime or a more enlightened approach. On the other, it might be argued that, in doing so, the company is supporting an appalling regime. Similarly, where mundane bribes are accepted (and legal) in a country, should a company doing business in that country pay those bribes simply in order to be able to compete? In these sorts of situations, people have to make moral judgments, and they will generally apply the moral standards of their home society. Quote:
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To be honest, while this is a fascinating area, and one in which I have a particular interest, it is veering quite seriously off-topic. It is also an area in which there are often no easy answers. So I think that I'd best leave it be for now, much as I would like to continue this discussion.
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03-11-2007, 07:34 PM | #164 |
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I find that debating the morality of characters in Lord of the Rings is hard to do, since, as a children's story the moral lesson was put in by the author himself. There's a reason why Frodo is endearing and Sauron is a fiery eyeball, and that's because beautiful is good and ugly is bad, end of story. Debate relative morality with a bad guy like Raskolnikov, not Sauron. Lord of the Rings is too Paradise Lost for me to see much ground for realtive morality.
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03-11-2007, 09:04 PM | #165 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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It is fascinating to read all this sound and fury in defense of the position that literature, as a sub-created world, cannot be applied to the primary world, but is simply, merely and only a spot of puff, just entertainment, without any other relation to ourselves as human beings and our culture than a smacking good time-eater.
For this is not, for example, how post-colonial writers in Africa regard stories. Take Ngugi wa Thiong'o, for example. He writes movingly of the power of language to define our selves, particularly of his experience as a child in the oral culture of the African language Kikuyu and then in the written culture of his colonial school, where English was imposed and the oralture (oral literature) of Kenya denigrated. What, according to Thiong'o, was the effect of the nightly stories told in Kikuyu? Quote:
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So, how does this relate to our reading of Tolkien? What do we do when we read him? Is reading him merely a cerebral activity, divorced from our experience in our daily language/s? Or does his language reverberate in our being, so that it mediates our relationships, it provides "image forming agents" in our mind which are part of the community and culture which English informs? It doesn't follow from this that readers who enjoy orcs and trolls and dragons are immoral. But what does follow is that language does relate powerfully to the Primary world, even language in stories. Heck, even popular culture. How much of our reading of Tolkien influences the world we perceive? How much of Tolkien causes us to see the world in a particular way? Maybe that's what Tolkien does--provides us with a variety of mediations, so that some of us can become elves, some hobbits, some Men, some dragons, trolls, orcs even, or, at the very least, perceive the world as a place of struggle between good and bad agencies. And it's funny, in a way, that Western culture (aka, some of its proponents here) seems intent to deny this purpose and value of language while writers in other cultures staunchly proclaim the kind of magical power for language which Tolkien himself espoused. Maybe that's what Tolkien does: allows us to perceive the world as elves, as hobbits, as Men, as orcs, trolls, dragons, or, at the very least, to perceive the world as a vast canvas of struggle between good and evil.
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03-12-2007, 12:21 AM | #166 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Fascinating thoughts....however, Lal & I are off to Port Patrick in Bonnie Scotland for five days, so we'll have to leave you to sort it out for yourselves..
See yus at the weekend.. |
03-12-2007, 03:11 AM | #167 | ||||||
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[QUOT=davemE] I cannot declare someone who thinks Orcs slaughtering Elves is cool (however 'seriously' they might take the slaughter) [/QUOTE]You are rather vague about this; what could they consider 'cool' about slaughtering elves? Quote:
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03-12-2007, 05:19 AM | #168 | |||
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03-12-2007, 05:58 AM | #169 | |||
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03-12-2007, 06:44 AM | #170 | ||
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03-12-2007, 07:06 AM | #171 | |
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03-12-2007, 07:25 AM | #172 |
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Just being covered by mud and dirt does not make him foul. He's dirty because he's a traveler, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage. But, he's also in a serious relationship with the most beautiful elf since Luthien. He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.
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03-12-2007, 12:33 PM | #173 | |
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03-13-2007, 10:14 AM | #174 | |||
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I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral. Which means more or less that, if you define evil as support of orcs, then supporting orcs is immoral! Quote:
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03-13-2007, 10:21 AM | #175 | |
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03-13-2007, 10:34 AM | #176 | |
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I don't think orc-rape is mentioned anywhere (though Celegorm tried to force Luthien to be his wife). The Elves also seem susceptible to unnecessary killings - the Kinslayings, for example. The Elves like to plunder - the Noldo rebellion was partly out of yearning for new kingdoms, not to mention the lust for silmarils and other precious things. So I suppose we should also oppose the Noldor. You've got me on torture though! Interesting that this seems to be something that fallen Elves do not partake in, though they're all too happy to murder. I wonder if that means anything. |
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03-13-2007, 10:58 AM | #177 | ||||||
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03-13-2007, 06:48 PM | #178 | |
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Of course elves are not portraied as evil as the orcs, but they too seem to be intolerant of other races and sometimes other elves. I actually don't see the orcs as pure evil, maybe because I don't belive in any such thing, but especially the conversation between Shagrat and Grishnákh convinces me that the orcs have other longings than just slaying. Maybe I mis-read the conversation (very likely), but they don't seem to be all that keen on war. |
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03-13-2007, 08:34 PM | #179 | |
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03-14-2007, 02:00 AM | #180 | ||
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03-14-2007, 07:28 AM | #181 | ||
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What is interesting is that people seem to classify evil and good when clearly there is no true good beings. . . You say that the elves only killed the petty-dwarves because they where beasts. .. Does that mean that you think ignorance is a good excuse for doing immoral things? If so I belive that most of the evil deeds of men could be excused. I actually do not think it matters one bit wether someone could have acted better than the elves, at least not when you talk morality and such. One should be judged by ones own actions and not the ones of others. Quote:
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03-14-2007, 08:20 AM | #182 | |||
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03-14-2007, 09:10 AM | #183 | |||
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Forgive me for only skimming through this thread (at least I don't have my old signature up anymore). Some points I wanted to remark upon...
I think Lal speaks quite well for me, the bad guys are just far more fascinating. Saruman is the 2nd most fascinating character in Lord of the Rings to me...can anyone guess the first? (And no it's not Gothmog ) As a huge Sean Bean fanguy; he remarks that the good roles get a little boring and he prefers to play the rough 'n tough, conflicted, or downright evil character. As he said about his concerned father role in Silent Hill...it just got too boring and he loves playing characters with far more depth and even a touch of 'evil.' I'd also like to point out, what Tolkien does excel at is not really defining good and evil as this black and white concept (all these good guys over here are pure, righteous and good...and they're facing all these dirty, rotten, evil people)....but there are 'areas of gray:' Quote:
I've never really been happy with the summary of the Lord of the Rings as a battle of 'good vs. evil' I mean sure there are good characters and there are bad...however good and evil exist on both sides. As Tolkien remarks about WW2: Quote:
On the 'evil' side, we have some examples...Grima, Saruman, and Gollum. All of these characters are fighting against the destruction of the Ring and the 'free peoples' yet they are not on Sauron's side. They have their own objectives or were just led astray and decieved. How about the Haradrim warriors through Sam's point of view: Quote:
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03-14-2007, 10:55 AM | #184 |
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I, like Boromir have only skimmed through this thread. (I hate joining these kind of things late- there's so much to catch up on.)
Anyways, I saw the thread and I had to reply. Mostly becausae I find myself holding to different veiwpoints over what appears to be two different topics. The questions as I see them are in two sets. The questions specific to this topic: 1) Why do some people prefer "bad" characters over "good" characters? 2) Does doing so make said people morally wrong, bad, corrupt, etc? And the more broad questions that have arisen as a result: 3) Is the morality of literature seperate from the morality of reality? 4) Can morality be relative based on culture or at all? At least, this is what I have percieved to be the main questions. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. So then, 1) Because as many have said, the bad guys are more interesting, more cool, more defined, in many circumstances. Because the good guys can be annoying. For example- I greatly dislike the Elves. I find them arrogant, and going back through Tolkien's history, they are responsible in a big way for the events surrounding the One Ring and Sauron's rise to power. And yet they still find time to look down on Men, who have done pretty much nothing but save their pretty little butts everytime they cause trouble. *grumble grumble* On the other hand, my favorite character is Sam. One of my friends is a fan of Smeagol, and thinks Sam is "too noble, too dull, too bland," etc. She likes Smeagol becuase he's interesting- he shows conflict and uncertainty, whereas Sam never waivers. And yet, we both are die hard fans of Darth Vader. (Not Anakin, from the new movies. Vader, the original.) It's difficult to find a more black and white universe than that of Star Wars. It's Light vs Dark. And yet, fans of the movies and books alike are found in equal numbers on both sides. My point is that different people find different things appealing. Some think bad guys are "cool" (like Vader), some think that they aren't. Some people like the ideals the the good guys up-hold, some think the good guys are a bunch of self-righteous, arrogant, legalistic morons (like the Jedi counsel). Explaining why each individual likes what they like is something only they can do, and sometimes it just boils down to, "I just do." 2)It really depends. Is this the person who laughs when the main bad guy pushes an old woman down the stairs? Or do they just find the bad guys more appealing, in an almost asthetically way? If it's the latter, I fail to see how it makes them immoral. I may disagree with my friend's view points about Smeagol, but I would have a hard time saying that she's a bad person for it. If, however, she thought everything Morgoth and Sauron did was right, funny, or generally appealing, she probably wouldn't be the kind of person I would be friends with. It takes more than an unpopular opinion to make someone morally bad. It takes an entire personality built on the enjoyment of others' suffering. And, without knowing more about someone than thier opinion, I would abstain from making such a judgement. 3)Yes, and no. Everything we read, see and experience shapes our world view, whether we agree with it or disagree. Further more, the media and literature that is popular says a great deal about our current culture. In that sense, the two are not seperate. However, saying that a single work of fiction is equivalent is ludicrous. LOTR, no matter how insightful and well written and popular, does not define morality for the real world. While many religious themes are found through out it, it sets up its own morality. Tolkien may have had a message in it- that's been debated on end elsewhere- but it would be difficult to say that said message was about right and wrong, or something else entirely. 4) Oooh, the big one. I for one, have never believed that morality is relative. After all, we all agree that murder and genocide, whatever the culture, is wrong. We all agree that the mutilation and castration of women, though consider acceptable and even morally right by some cultures, is wrong. I do, however, believe that there is a difference between what is culturally accepted, or even legally defined, and what is morally right and wrong. It is arrogant to think that a custom of a culture is the only right way to do something. Unfortunately, all cultures think this way. In fact, something as siginificant as every single culture ever documented having the same view regarding anything is considered a phenomenon in Anthropology. It's called Ethno-centricity. But, again there is a difference between the culturally acceptable, and morality. You can't excuse every misdeed as "coming from a different culture." Somethings are right, and somethings are wrong, no matter who you are or where you come from. Maybe the Orcs viewed the Elves as evil oppressors, but they destroyed countless lives in the fight against them. They stole from each other, betrayed each other, burned and pillaged, and sought to destroy everything that was ever built.
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03-14-2007, 11:08 AM | #185 | ||
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03-14-2007, 11:19 AM | #186 | ||
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03-14-2007, 11:20 AM | #187 | |||||
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2) How exactly are women castrated? Quote:
Is there any account of orcs killing just for the sake of killing? They always seem to justify it somehow in my experience. Quote:
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03-14-2007, 11:29 AM | #188 | ||||
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03-14-2007, 11:52 AM | #189 | |||||
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03-14-2007, 01:26 PM | #190 | |||
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03-14-2007, 01:39 PM | #191 | |||
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