Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, when is he described as such?

LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':

[Frodo:] 'I think one of his [the Enemy's] spies would - well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'
'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it?'

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':

I was aware of that quote; however, Frodo does not reffer to Strider as looking foul, but strange, and Strider's play of words, esspecially his refference to the password (all that is gold does not glitter), show a discrepancy between his humble looks [with mud on his boots, trave-stained cloack, hood over head] and true majesty. Later on, when he doesn't have to be disguised, his fair looks are evident.

[Salacia Deloresista]

Just being covered by mud and dirt does not make him foul. He's dirty because he's a traveler, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage. But, he's also in a serious relationship with the most beautiful elf since Luthien. He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Salacia Deloresista

, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage.

I think that that is a concept only of the films ... in the book he may not flaunt his status amongst the people of Bree who have no appreciation of the Rangers (until they go), but he is not in denial..... otherwise he would hardly lug the broken sword around with him at all times in a somewhat impractical fashion

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Raynor

That was not my argument. I argued that if one believes that deligthing in evil deeds is immoral, then if siding with the orcs, or 'cheering them' as one debater has put it, means derriving pleasure from their deeds, then this is an immoral instance.

Hmm. I think the real problem here is the word evil, which I have conveniently emboldened. What constitutes an "evil act" is very difficult to decide, as the adjective "evil" can be applied to more or less any act or thought.

I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral.

Which means more or less that, if you define evil as support of orcs, then supporting orcs is immoral!

Originally Posted by Salacia

He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.

I suppose so. But to take the opposite argument, Sauron, for example, was meant to take a fair form.

Originally Posted by Raynor

The intent of 99.999% of pornography in the movie is clear; they want to promote pornography, it is an end, not a means to an end.

I just found this and, although it's not relevant, I thought I'd mention that the Catalonian government is offering grants to local pornographers to create pornography in the Catalan language to "promote Catalan in every medium." This made me laugh.

[Raynor]

I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral.

No, I was thinking of plunder, rape, torture, unnecessary killings.

[the guy who be short]

No, I was thinking of plunder, rape, torture, unnecessary killings.

Hmm, I see. If you think the above is evil, then supporting orcs is immoral.

I don't think orc-rape is mentioned anywhere (though Celegorm tried to force Luthien to be his wife). The Elves also seem susceptible to unnecessary killings - the Kinslayings, for example. The Elves like to plunder - the Noldo rebellion was partly out of yearning for new kingdoms, not to mention the lust for silmarils and other precious things. So I suppose we should also oppose the Noldor.

You've got me on torture though! Interesting that this seems to be something that fallen Elves do not partake in, though they're all too happy to murder. I wonder if that means anything.

[Salacia Deloresista]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But to take the opposite argument, Sauron, for example, was meant to take a fair form.

Sauron was originally beautiful, but when he fell, he was corrupted in body and spirit. It's a very Paradise Lost moment, actually. Satan was beautiful, too, when he was an angel.

[Raynor]

Even though there where no established kingdom I belive that they took the land of the petty-dwarves and killed where they found them, but my memorie can be failing me.

For all intents and purposes, the petty dwarves appeared to the elves as beasts who attacked them. They stopped as soon as they recognized they were sentient beings - that is, after meeting the 'greater' dwarves I am looking foward to anyone putting any argument that someone could have behaved better than the elves.

Of course elves are not portraied as evil as the orcs, but they too seem to be intolerant of other races and sometimes other elves.

To what cases of intolerance are you reffering?