Who was the most foolish ruler of all?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In what sense wasn't it safe?

How many elves died in 'heaven?' Surely not as many as in Middle earth, but the land without stain surely had to be steam-cleaned more than a few times.

What better alternatives do you see?

I've struggled with this question. Eru constructed men thus, and so you'd think that he'd have a better plan to hand to Manwe regarding the Ban. And note that this was somewhat in reference to the Garden of Eden Genesis account in the Christian Bible.

We're curious folk, and not knowing something gets our imaginations, then feet, in motion. The best way to keep my kids out of something is to hide it in plain site. Telling them not to go into a closet is a surefire way of getting them to open the door.

He is called the "chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised against the discord of Melkor", cf. Ainulindale. I certainly doubt it was a gratuitous title. He is the main organiser of the resistance against Melkor, he calls his brethren to the fight, he transmits Eru's will to the others (as the only one capable to directly appeal to Him). According to Osanwe-kenta, "Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always."

Maybe it's our definitions of 'leader.' Manwe, to me, is passive. As you say, he is the Arda conduit of Eru, and not, seemingly, off a leash. He's reactive - something happens then he takes action. It's notable that he sits on his throne.

And note that Tulkas calls his brethren to fight Melkor as well.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Surely not as many as in Middle earth, but the land without stain surely had to be steam-cleaned more than a few times.

I am not sure that I follow, perhaps you can rephrase.

The best way to keep my kids out of something is to hide it in plain site.

Well, that can't work in Arda. Aman is common knowledge at least among the Eldar, who were in close contact with the numenoreans. The numenoreans themselves came into contact with the inhabitants of Aman during the war of wrath, and afterwards (with Eonwe) when they settled.

Manwe, to me, is passive.
...
It's notable that he sits on his throne.

The fading of the role of the valar is something gradual; before the ages of the trees or of the sun, there were ages uncounted. While the Silmarillion is not extremely explicit, previous version of HoME detail his role in actively fighting and defeating Melkor.

And note that Tulkas calls his brethren to fight Melkor as well.

True, but he represents violence (albeit the good of it, cf HoME X).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am not sure that I follow, perhaps you can rephrase.

Have no clue where my copy of the Sil is, and so this will be from memory - help me out, those with the book. Anyway, why were the elves brought West? Was this to afford the Valar with some playmates? Wasn't it also so that nothing would snatch the elves away in the dark (to make orcs)?

"Come to Aman, where it's always light and bright and no evil walks!"

Evil did exist in Aman, though bound in chains. Elves were slain as a results, first by Melkor, which one could argue had already happened in the East, but then by each other, which was the greater evil. Would elves have gotten a taste for each other's blood had they never taken the road West? How would they have turned out had they not heeded the Call?

And Manwe is guilty of false advertising, as night did fall in Aman.

Well, that can't work in Arda. Aman is common knowledge at least among the Eldar, who were in close contact with the numenoreans. The numenoreans themselves came into contact with the inhabitants of Aman during the war of wrath, and afterwards (with Eonwe) when they settled.

Agreed. However, you and I may have limits, but what of Eru's avatar? Wasn't a better solution available? My thought was to allow Men to walk onto Aman. After enough of their bodies piled up on the beach (in stasis?), eventually those on the ships would get the point. Surely, memories would fade, and every few hundred years the experiment would be repeated, but methinks in time everyone would lose interest from the monotony.

The fading of the role of the valar is something gradual; before the ages of the trees or of the sun, there were ages uncounted. While the Silmarillion is not extremely explicit, previous version of HoME detail his role in actively fighting and defeating Melkor.

But in this version we don't see him slugging it out with Melkor. Also, when Men violate the Ban, it states that he lays down his authority and lets Eru deal with it. Couldn't we have read that Manwe pleads to Eru, who then allows the Land of the Star to be swallowed by the sea via Ulmo/Manwe?

True, but he represents violence (albeit the good of it, cf HoME X).

Chopping off someone's arm for a good laugh is orc work; chopping off someone's arm when no other way is available to keep them from stabbing my child is not.

[narfforc]

The King of the Dead did his people no favours for refusing to lead them to war, he led them to thousands of years of limbo, waiting for the return of the Heir of the one that cursed them, he was a fool to waver so and seems like a pretty bad leader of men to me.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Would elves have gotten a taste for each other's blood had they never taken the road West?

However, the chainning of Melkor for three ages brought almost to zero during that time the number of elves that became orcs (who had no problem killing elves).

How would they have turned out had they not heeded the Call?

Well, I already quoted in my first post here the various positive aspects of the elves that made to Aman - and back.

but methinks in time everyone would lose interest from the monotony.

The last paragraph of the (actual) Silmarillion warns about the power of Melkor's lies, which grow fruit ever and anon. In the letters, Tolkien comments on the fact that Men believing that serial immortality in Ea should be theirs is a chief lie of the agents of evil. Thus, I don't think your alternative is better; giving perpetual opportunity, they would keep on falling.

But in this version we don't see him slugging it out with Melkor.

Besides what I mentioned earlier, he is the first to oppose Melkor's claim of lordship; Valaquenta mentions speciffically Melkor contended with Manwe ("and the other valar"). Moreover, a great leader needn't be a factotum, always at the forefront; most of the times, if not always, there is far greater advantage to be gained from proper coordination.

chopping off someone's arm when no other way is available to keep them from stabbing my child is not.

Then again, even after Melkor's escape, the valar were still cautious to attack him, since even then he was still powerful enough to destroy Arda, as can be seen from some comments in HoME X, which I partially quoted. Permanent propensity towards violence is not the best attitude in such conditions.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I'd have to say Sauron. From the start, he was nothing but a carbon-copy Melkor who was less potent at everything. Use of his powers is shown few and far between, and nothing of extreme strength is shown. Sauron proved to be incompetent when he wasted werewolves one by one and then struck at Luthien when Huan had dropped his guard, which is senseless due to the fact that Sauron took wolf form only to fight Huan. Rather than take the form of a troll to pry Huan off or become something to small to be bitten, Sauron becomes a snake and then surrenders. Pardon my language, but he completely became Luthien's and Huan's *****.

Afterwards, his plan with the Rings failed due to underestimating the elves' senses, and the dwarves being uncorrupted. Afterwards, he waged war and lost. Numenor defeated him again, and he was too blind to realize that Numenor was in danger of Eru's wrath, thus causing him to die again. Afterwards, he struck too soon and was defeated utterly.

Finally, he was horribly arrogant regarding the One Ring and made horrible decisions based on his paranoia of the Ring being used against him by someone such as Aragorn. In the end, he died not in a struggle or a final blaze of glory, but by a lunatic tripping during his victory dance. It was as if Eru was saying "You don't even deserve a standard death."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Turgon!

What a foolish elf he was. . . First he builds Vinyamar and settles there with his people, he is told to secretly build a new city. . .this must have been really tiresome work and it must have gone really slow as they could not just all march there and start building. That would surely have been discovered.

When in Gondolin, because he does take proper security meassures his sister dies. . .He does not give order to pick up Hurin and so his location is discovered.

But the thing that makes him so foolish is that he goes through all this trouble to please the Valar and then he does not see it through. . .that does not make sence. The his people have laboured in vain and not only does it make him foolish it also makes him selfish. His people died because he found Gondolin ever so pretty.

Freca was a fool for going to Edoras out numbered many times and insulting the king in his own house, and maybe not so in other houses, but this was Helm.
If he really thought that Helm was so blind that he could not see through his power play, and then to react with a vieled threat, when he should have laughed along with the rest and then gave a speach about peace between Dunland and Rohan, and the prosperity that such a marriage might provide both kingdoms, an end to old grievances and new trade missions that would make them rich . . .
I could have pulled it off, but then again I'm not fat, and I am more like Helm.