Does it count as survival? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 04-13-2007, 09:00 PM

Frodo's heroism is ironic. He saves the Shire but not for himself, and before the book ends he has gone on to his metaphorical death, i.e., his 'final resting place' in Tol Eressea.

The real hero is Sam. He is loyal, makes huge sacrifices, does deeds far beyond his seeming capabilities, then comes home to the Shire and thrives, being made mayor, which is as close to 'king of the hobbits' as a hobbit can get.

Can Sam be compared to Harry? Not very well. I see more Aragorn in Harry than any other heroic figure in LotR, but book 7 may nullify my guesswork.

The Harry Potter series has gotten darker with each book. The death of Cedric Diggory was a shock to me, and heralded "anything goes" for the entire series.

narfforc · 04-14-2007, 12:06 AM

Maybe JK Rowling has some plan for Harry to be broken or changed in some way, if the meaning behind his life is broken, his friends or loved one dies and he cannot save them, this may change Harry in the same way as Annakin Skywalker was, Frodo managed to save the Shire yet he was still broken in some way, how would he have reacted if he'd had real power and seen the Shire being destroyed in front of him, would he have used absolute power for good knowing that the same power may corrupt if used by one with unbalanced emotions. Maybe in using that power Harry is seduced by The Other side and kills one of his friends only to be saved at the last minute by the awful realisation of what he has done, or by the appearence of his parents, in this he would be similar to Frodo's temptation by The Ring, and Gollum's intervention.

Mithalwen · 04-14-2007, 04:53 AM

I touched on this I think long ago in the chapter by chapter discussion so alas I am repeating myself...

I think it is quite clear that Frodo does not survive the quest in the same way that Aragorn and the other hobbits survive to marry, have children and take up their offices of responsibility.

To me it seems that he has died from the possibility of that life by the time he reaches Rivendell. The morgul wound, though not technically fatal has seemingly brought him in to a different type of being - a more spiritual type. Think of Gandalf's comment to himself that Frodo will be as a vessel filled with light for those with the eyes to see? Which is at the same time as they discuss Glorfindel's appearance as a figure of light as Frodo crossed the river and how Glorfindel dwellt in both realms at the same time .

tbc

Morwen · 04-14-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

I think it is quite clear that Frodo does not survive the quest in the same way that Aragorn and the other hobbits survive to marry, have children and take up their offices of responsibility.

Merry, Pippin, and Sam all marry in their thirties. At the time he left the Shire Frodo was about 50 and, like Bilbo before him, he seemed like a confirmed bachelor. I therefore don't see the quest as depriving him of a family life as he didn't seem to be heading down that path anyway.

Quote:

Instead of coming to terms with or learning to accept the limitations caused by his trauma, Frodo retreats. Into it or away from it we don't know as we don't follow him, but he may as well be dead to us as he has gone where others cannot follow.

I thought that he did come to terms with his situation by accepting that he could not stay in the Shire and be healed, that he has had to give the Shire up so that others may keep it and that if he was going to survive (physically) he would have to go West. So I didn't see his departure as giving up or fleeing but moving on - like recognising that a particular drug or treatment isn't working for you and trying something different.

Whether he found healing - I don't know but like Child of the 7th Age the description of Frodo's arrival in the West - sweet fragrance in the air, the sound of singing, a far green country under a swift sunrise - left me feeling optimistic about his chances.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 04-17-2007, 04:56 AM

At what point does one account for change, and is it arbitrary?

What's the difference between Frodo's injury and, say, me losing a leg and becoming extremely melancholy? Do I become a different person?

I'm inclined prima facie to think that it's the same Frodo and that he did survive.

Eönwë · 07-26-2009, 11:00 AM

Hmm... this is a very interesting thread indeed.

Frodo, when he comes back to the Shire, is no longer the Frodo we see at beginning of the books. He still shares a lot with Frodo before, and he still is the same person, but he is also changed.

When he comes back from his journey, I think Lalwende is right when he says that he has grown too much. He can't go back to life before because he has changed, even if he appears the same. I think that the reason he that the shire isn't saved for him is that it is no longer the place for him. As the Hobbits of the Shire are the carefree and innocent individuals that we all know, I think that the Shire just wasn't the right place for him any more. Even with the Scouring, the hobbits were still hobbits, and I think that Frodo had changed more than any of them, even Sam, who managed to settle down, at least for a while, before going West.

Frodo, after facing so much hardship has changed, and I think that the Shire can no longer contain him. He is no longer the carefree Shire-hobbit that he once was, and I think, to continue growing the way he has, he needs to leave the simpler Shire-folk and go West with the Elves, most of whom have also experienced a lot of hardship, and are more serious folk. To continue to grow, he needs to live with those that understand what he has gone through, and what was going through at the end of the War of the Ring, and the hobbits of the Shire were too happy and carefree for him.

Frodo probably felt out of place in the shire, because he longer fitted in. He probably felt like he couldn't join in with all the carefree merriment and laughter (and maybe even couldn't take it) of the Shire-Hobbits, and he probably felt that he had to go. Even when the elves are having fun, it is much deeper, and I think that Frodo has become a more spiritual being after the whole ordeal, and is able to relate with the elves more than the hobbits. For example, maybe the light-hearted singing and music of the hobbits was too light-hearted (or maybe even irritating) for him, and he would enjoy the much more powerful beautiful singing of the elves.

Basically, I think in his transformation, Frodo has become more like an elf than a hobbit, and so can no longer fit in the Shire the way he used to, and needs to be with more similar-minded individuals.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 07-26-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Basically, I think in his transformation, Frodo has become more like an elf than a hobbit, and so can no longer fit in the Shire the way he used to, and needs to be with more similar-minded individuals.

I believe that Gildor said, before Frodo was even out of the Shire that Frodo was more like an elf than any other hobbit, moreso than Bilbo too... Perhaps this Elvishness about him grew?

Eönwë · 07-27-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I believe that Gildor said, before Frodo was even out of the Shire that Frodo was more like an elf than any other hobbit, moreso than Bilbo too... Perhaps this Elvishness about him grew?

Well, you saw what happened with Sam when he had the ring for even a short time (Well, of course you'd know what the orcs thought he was

). Even he, who is such a humble character throughout, gets thoughts of taking control, very unhobbittish thoughts, and so imagine what all that time with the ring has done to Frodo's mind.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 07-27-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, you saw what happened with Sam when he had the ring for even a short time (Well, of course you'd know what the orcs thought he was

). Even he, who is such a humble character throughout, gets thoughts of taking control, very unhobbittish thoughts, and so imagine what all that time with the ring has done to Frodo's mind.

Yes, I indeed know what the orcs thought Sam was. If I didn't, I don't know why I even am here.

If the Ring did that to Sam, then Frodo's mind must have been swarming with unhobbitish thoughts.

04-14-2007, 12:06 AM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Frodo Potter Maybe JK Rowling has some plan for Harry to be broken or changed in some way, if the meaning behind his life is broken, his friends or loved one dies and he cannot save them, this may change Harry in the same way as Annakin Skywalker was, Frodo managed to save the Shire yet he was still broken in some way, how would he have reacted if he'd had real power and seen the Shire being destroyed in front of him, would he have used absolute power for good knowing that the same power may corrupt if used by one with unbalanced emotions. Maybe in using that power Harry is seduced by The Other side and kills one of his friends only to be saved at the last minute by the awful realisation of what he has done, or by the appearence of his parents, in this he would be similar to Frodo's temptation by The Ring, and Gollum's intervention. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 04-14-2007 at 12:15 AM.

04-14-2007, 04:53 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I touched on this I think long ago in the chapter by chapter discussion so alas I am repeating myself... I think it is quite clear that Frodo does not survive the quest in the same way that Aragorn and the other hobbits survive to marry, have children and take up their offices of responsibility. To me it seems that he has died from the possibility of that life by the time he reaches Rivendell. The morgul wound, though not technically fatal has seemingly brought him in to a different type of being - a more spiritual type. Think of Gandalf's comment to himself that Frodo will be as a vessel filled with light for those with the eyes to see? Which is at the same time as they discuss Glorfindel's appearance as a figure of light as Frodo crossed the river and how Glorfindel dwellt in both realms at the same time . tbc __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

04-17-2007, 04:56 AM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	At what point does one account for change, and is it arbitrary? What's the difference between Frodo's injury and, say, me losing a leg and becoming extremely melancholy? Do I become a different person? I'm inclined prima facie to think that it's the same Frodo and that he did survive. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-26-2009, 11:00 AM	#6
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Out-growing the Shire Hmm... this is a very interesting thread indeed. Frodo, when he comes back to the Shire, is no longer the Frodo we see at beginning of the books. He still shares a lot with Frodo before, and he still is the same person, but he is also changed. When he comes back from his journey, I think Lalwende is right when he says that he has grown too much. He can't go back to life before because he has changed, even if he appears the same. I think that the reason he that the shire isn't saved for him is that it is no longer the place for him. As the Hobbits of the Shire are the carefree and innocent individuals that we all know, I think that the Shire just wasn't the right place for him any more. Even with the Scouring, the hobbits were still hobbits, and I think that Frodo had changed more than any of them, even Sam, who managed to settle down, at least for a while, before going West. Frodo, after facing so much hardship has changed, and I think that the Shire can no longer contain him. He is no longer the carefree Shire-hobbit that he once was, and I think, to continue growing the way he has, he needs to leave the simpler Shire-folk and go West with the Elves, most of whom have also experienced a lot of hardship, and are more serious folk. To continue to grow, he needs to live with those that understand what he has gone through, and what was going through at the end of the War of the Ring, and the hobbits of the Shire were too happy and carefree for him. Frodo probably felt out of place in the shire, because he longer fitted in. He probably felt like he couldn't join in with all the carefree merriment and laughter (and maybe even couldn't take it) of the Shire-Hobbits, and he probably felt that he had to go. Even when the elves are having fun, it is much deeper, and I think that Frodo has become a more spiritual being after the whole ordeal, and is able to relate with the elves more than the hobbits. For example, maybe the light-hearted singing and music of the hobbits was too light-hearted (or maybe even irritating) for him, and he would enjoy the much more powerful beautiful singing of the elves. Basically, I think in his transformation, Frodo has become more like an elf than a hobbit, and so can no longer fit in the Shire the way he used to, and needs to be with more similar-minded individuals. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

04-13-2007, 09:00 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Frodo's heroism is ironic. He saves the Shire but not for himself, and before the book ends he has gone on to his metaphorical death, i.e., his 'final resting place' in Tol Eressea. The real hero is Sam. He is loyal, makes huge sacrifices, does deeds far beyond his seeming capabilities, then comes home to the Shire and thrives, being made mayor, which is as close to 'king of the hobbits' as a hobbit can get. Can Sam be compared to Harry? Not very well. I see more Aragorn in Harry than any other heroic figure in LotR, but book 7 may nullify my guesswork. The Harry Potter series has gotten darker with each book. The death of Cedric Diggory was a shock to me, and heralded "anything goes" for the entire series.