Lord Melkor Rightful Master of the Fates of Arda

[davem]

Ok, so, Arda 'renewed', when the Music shall be played aright, is effectively a consequence of the 'Fall' resulting from Melkor's rebellion? The First Music could not have been played aright, because the capacity for moral choices was not within the Ainur. If Arda was not to be inhabited by a bunch of robots, or 'Yes-men' the Children of Eru (including the Ainur), had to be placed in a position where they would need to make moral choices - ie, where their allegiance to the Good was not simply a consequence of not having any alternative, but where they have known Evil & had the option to ally themselves with it. Hence, at the end, those who participate in the Second Music will sing the themes aright, not because they don't have anything else to sing, but because they will have chosen in full awareness to sing the right themes.

Which, if I'm right, requires not only Morgoth's rebellion, but all the suffering which takes place. Evil has to be fully known & each potential participant in the Second Music must make a choice in full knowledge (ie not out of fear of Eru, or willful ignorance, or desire for reward).

Or in short, if Morgoth hadn't existed, Eru would have had to create him......

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

More or less, yes. The thing I'd point out is:

Or in short, if Morgoth hadn't existed, Eru would have had to create him......

Not actually. If we speak of persons only, then he wouldn't have to create Morgoth - he only would have to create any free-willed person. It could have been an Elf, or a Man (as in the Bible), who would make the first "falling step". The only prerequisite for it would have to be free will to choose even evil. The prerequisite, as we can deduce, Eru gave already to all the Ainur. He said: "Now play some variations in terms of this theme." Melkor was the one who chose to play "outside" of the theme. But even if all Ainur played according to the theme and created a 100% perfect world (mountains where they should be, seas where they should be etc.), the first Elf/Man could still choose evil, and he will be the first "Morgoth". Because they have free will, the possibility existed.

If you want it in plain English: from the moment when a being capable of do good/evil exists, evil (and good in the meaning as you presented it before, as opposite of evil) exists. Singularity (Eru - "the One") does not allow contradictions, because everything is good (!in the meaning I presented here all the time) for it. The second being can cause things the One does not "like" (said very, very vaguely; for using terms for transcendental things is vague at best, but for our purposes let's take it like that, this is not our subject now). As long as the Eä exists, the One can choose how to interact with the Creation (if ever), e.g. in Christianity we have the example that God interacts very much with the Creation, and even is himself the one who completely turns the tide for the Creation by choosing to lead its path from self-destruction (which would result if the Creation were left to itself) to Redemption. In Middle-Earth, the matters are less clear, because Eru intervenes very scarcely - or maybe he does more, but we are not told about it, so this is left to speculation. But what we know for sure even for Middle-Earth is that at one moment, finally, there is the eschatological "Cut!": "Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased." There is the End of Eä, and after that, there is the Second Music - as I said earlier - and yes, here I'd quote you,
"Hence, at the end, those who participate in the Second Music will sing the themes aright, not because they don't have anything else to sing, but because they will have chosen in full awareness to sing the right themes."

[davem]

So Eru must permit not only the possibility, but also the actuality of Evil. Evil cannot simply be obliterated by Eru (because that would obliterate free will too, & all but guarantee that the Second Music would go the way of the First), but must be rejected (or accepted) by each individual. While the capacity to choose evil exists within any of the Children Eru must permit the existence of evil - until each has made a free choice one way or the other.

Eru 'needs' evil to exist as a possibility, an option. Hence, it seems to me, it is too simplistic to say that Eru 'hates' evil, he may do - but he also needs it because without it the Children would not be able to choose the Good/Eru freely, in full knowledge. Evil is necessary in that sense, & hence so is Melkor/Morgoth - not necessary for what he does, but for what he is.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

So Eru must permit not only the possibility, but also the actuality of Evil. Evil cannot simply be obliterated by Eru (because that would obliterate free will too, & all but guarantee that the Second Music would go the way of the First), but must be rejected (or accepted) by each individual. While the capacity to choose evil exists within any of the Children Eru must permit the existence of evil - until each has made a free choice one way or the other.

Couldn't have said it better. You summed it up.

Eru 'needs' evil to exist as a possibility, an option. Hence, it seems to me, it is too simplistic to say that Eru 'hates' evil, he may do - but he also needs it because without it the Children would not be able to choose the Good/Eru freely, in full knowledge. Evil is necessary in that sense, & hence so is Melkor/Morgoth - not necessary for what he does, but for what he is.

Well, there actually is one possibility - unless, for some unexplicable reason, all decided to choose good from the very beginning, even before knowing evil. This is the theoretical "all-good" state. It's merely theoretical, mind you. But what I want to show on that is, that Eru does not need to create evil himself, or support it, or name it among the possibilities of what can be done - the only thing he has to do is allow it for the free choice. Simply said, he has to allow to be disobeyed. Which is, of course, only natural if he wants to give the beings he created a free will. Eru said: you can play the music in any way you wish, using any way, and here is my theme, play it in C-dur. Melkor decided to play it in C-moll, and it was Melkor who got the idea of playing it in C-moll, Eru didn't propose it as an option.
Yet to Morgoth needing necessarily have to exist - I suppose you take Morgoth here not as person, but as the personification of evil? As the representation of the "other choice", of the "C-moll", right? Well in that case, you are right, obviously. The way I understand it (if I misunderstood you, please correct me) I would better say it like this: there was the need to create the option of choosing Morgoth instead of Eru. (using Morgoth=symbol of the evil) So if you take it like that, yes, of course. There is quite thin line however, of interpretating what we said above the wrong way - like as if it was Eru who proposed Men the choice to choose Morgoth, thus, even choosing Morgoth would go with Eru's will (and we might even completely overlook that we are rejecting Eru!). So yes, I agree with all you said - assuming I understood you correctly - only I thought it's needed to make this clear, for errare humanum est and people tend to wrongly interpretate many things.

[davem]

Of course, being omniscient Eru must have known the choices Melkor & those who followed him would make, & therefore brought them into being knowing what they would do. Hence in making them he is 'responsible' - not for making Melkor choose evil over Good, but for making him knowing that he would choose evil over Good. Which means he made him knowing that he would rebel & that he would suffer being cast into the Void.

But Eru didn't have to act. He didn't have to create anything. When he chose to create in full knowledge of what would happen rather than not create at all, he makes himself ultimately responsible for the suffering that will ensue - as well as the Glory that will result. Note: Eru is not responsible for creating evil as such, but he is responsible for creating anything at all when he knows full well that evil will come into being as a result (direct or indirect) of that act of creation.

(Of course, maybe he did have to act - maybe creation is Eru's nature & he cannot therefore not create.)

[narfforc]

What has always intrigued me about The Second Music is that when all The Children sing before Eru will this include the corrupted forms that had life, will Eru cleanse and renew them also, will they see the Light of The Secret Fire and be at one with all things that have come from the divine spark, or will they suffer the fate of their Master who twisted them into hateful beings that had little or no control over their creation or fate, for are they not also victims. In bodily form an elf may return, what form would an orc be if allowed to return for the Second Music.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Davem: You answered yourself in your post Whatever Eru would create, if it had free will, it could've rebelled, so the only other option was not to create anything at all. Only to what you say about the possibility of him having to act, we don't know, but I think it is not logical, since it makes Eru a not-free being (contradiction with that he's omnipotent).

Originally Posted by narfforc

or will they suffer the fate of their Master who twisted them into hateful beings that had little or no control over their creation or fate, for are they not also victims. In bodily form an elf may return, what form would an orc be if allowed to return for the Second Music.

Well, that depends. I don't know if there is anywhere stated what would happen to Orcs&co. at the End of Arda. Also, if you are speaking only of appearance here, I think we don't know anything from Tolkien's works about if the Children will have any bodily form any longer, or at least, they would obviously not have the same they had in life (since that one might be burned, quartered or whatever). So the difference between an Elf (or Man)& an Orc would be only in their "spirit", if you like. I don't know much about this "Arda renewal" stuff - better ask someone else - but if there would be a "new" Arda, I might think that it would be up to the Children what form they'd choose to take. But I'm only speculating, this is a mystery for me as much as for you. The only thing for sure is probably that the form will be "good".

Oh, and I would like to point one funny thing I noticed. Please see what the thread came to now, and look at the first words of the opening post of the thread:

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

I would like to start a thread to glorify Lord Melkor...

And now, please, compare what you saw here, with this:

Originally Posted by Eru Ilúvatar

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Davem: You answered yourself in your post Whatever Eru would create, if it had free will, it could've rebelled, so the only other option was not to create anything at all. Only to what you say about the possibility of him having to act, we don't know, but I think it is not logical, since it makes Eru a not-free being (contradiction with that he's omnipotent).

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

But then aren't we left with Eru being ultimately responsible for the suffering of his creatures - they only really suffer because he creates them knowing what their fate will be? Its not even the case that Eru knew Hurin might suffer at the hands of Morgoth, & that Turin might commit incest with his sister - Eru knew for an inevitable fact that those things would happen (along with everything else) & still spoke the 'Ea!'

Well, in that matter, of course. But he is not responsible for anything more than giving them the option to do what they did, the evil was their "invention". The responsibility and choice was all theirs, the only thing they can say to Eru is: "It would be better if you haven't created me at all." So, the question you set here now is not about Eru, it is the Hamletish question. If you take the example of Húrin, then Eru could have chosen not to speak "Eä!", as you said earlier, but then there would be no Creation. And if he chose to speak it, then there will be the suffering Húrin.