High Elves and the Balrogs

[obloquy]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

So we're all in agreement that no she-elf could possibly threaten a Balrog? :P lol
She'd probably be late for the duel anyway!

lol, well i suppose there would be a different concept to fighting to what we know with the addition of "magic" and species. No average human woman has ever been given any recognition, which can only mean that Elvish women were as competant as the men.. or close to, as regards physical exertion. Therefore, saying Galadriel was as we have defined her, i see no reason why she wouldn't be able to defend herself aptly - i just find it hard to believe, mainly because of the real world... and because she isn't depicted so much as a fighter, but more of a wise and majestic speciman

[obloquy]

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

No need to be offensive mate - don't forget Galadriel isn't actually real. My inability to picture Galadrial as a warrior comes from todays image as a woman not being a fighter, they still don't let women into the infantry... Also, never to my knowledge, which isn't law, has Galadriel ever fought an enemy with a lance in her hand, so to speak. I don't doubt her capability in mind, as we have already seen and heard from various people and book references. That is where i struggle to see Galadriel as a warrior.

To say i'm folly i think is quite rude, i shall refrain from retaliating, i didn't come here for an argument, i prefer debate.

[Boromir88]

Hammerhand, you are right that Galadriel isn't shown to be a fighter, especially by the Third Age. But I think the statement from UT of her being a match for both 'loremasters and athletes of the Eldar' goes to show that not only does she have 'mental toughness' but she is also physically strong.

Also take into consideration this...

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself. Galadriel may not be imagined as much of a fighter (since there isn't much said about her actually 'fighting.') But she was an extremely powerful Elf (the most powerful of the Third Age and one of the greatest period). So, she just wasn't some wise lady that gave out gifts and read people's thoughts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself.

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

I agree. Nevertheless, that does not undermine what Boro said about Galadriel. She was surely capable and powerful - in whatever means you think. I also think no one contested this. I think the only problem we have with her is that it's hard to imagine her with a sword (and in armor???) fighting against, let's say, even Fëanor's hordes at Alqualondë (hmm... was that even canonical? I think this is but one of the versions in UT, from whose no one knows which one to choose as granted...) Though, as I said, we have evidence that she was mighty even in that, as Boro said, so it's our limited imagination in which the problem lies.

[Boromir88]

Well Raynor, I think Nenya is part of 'that power' that dwells in Lorien. As the Elven Rings were made to sustain and protect against the 'weariness of time.' But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

Where is the evidence of Tolkien stating this? It's hard to believe because he'd always seem to downplay Galadriel while he augments much of Elrond's power.

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin. Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...). Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right? For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien? And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

[Raynor]

I believe obloquy is referring to HoME XII:

Originally Posted by The Shibboleth

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
...
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.*
...
* Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[obloquy]

Yes, thanks Raynor. The quote obviously refers to a time before the exodus of the Noldor (Feanor and Galadriel were still "of Valinor"), so we know that it even includes the Vanyar. The wording leaves room--possibly but not necessarily--for Elwe somewhere below Luthien. Besides him, I can think of no other candidates in Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin.

If you read what I wrote, then I was saying that particularly this one was probably coming from the Ring's power.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...).

If you are suggesting "Finrod was a loser", then I have to strongly disagree. His contest with Sauron was not some stupid loss, quite the contrary, I believe we can sort of compare it to Fingolfin vs. Morgoth. Or Gandalf vs. Balrog when he was closing the door to Chamber of Mazarbul. And I doubt you would call Fingolfin a loser.
Nevertheless, what you said, for example the "reading mind" thing, does not need to have, I think, anything in common with the Ring itself. Quite the contrary, I think it's exactly the example of how powerful she was. After all, Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful in mind right after Fëanor, and that's exactly what you see here. And yes, Finrod was therefore probably not as powerful as her - as all the Elves (but he was not a loser).

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right?

Just one note before start - Galadriel, as neither of the Elf lords, was not able to use the power of the Ring openly. Just rhetorics, I know - but let's not confuse it.

Okay. Now to the main point. What the Three do I already mentioned in the post before where I quoted Elrond, and I'm not going to return to it, it's all there. Just your claim now does not in any way contest it. The words "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" mean no more and no less that the Rings give less power when a less powerful person wields them, greater power when a more powerful person wields them. Less powerful person can make a mosquito flee away from him, more powerful person can stop the Ringwraith. But it does not, as you deduce, based with no evidence, enhance the innate strength of their bearers. Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right - that's okay. But these powers are for making, healing... whatever. Nothing about boosting own powers.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien?

Lórien is something else than Rivendell because a different person is it's - let's say, ruler. But surely you don't say that Rivendell didn't have its own atmosphere? It had, just a different one. I don't actually understand what are you going to say with this. The only difference could therefore stem from the Ringbearers' attitudes and personal aims. If for example a Balrog had an Elven Ring and wanted to use it to preserve his own realm, it would have also a different atmosphere: let's say burning fires and everlasting darkness. If the Witch-King did something like this, his realm would have been a moonlit freezing place full of fear. The same it is with the Rivendell-Lórien difference.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

I believe that surely she would be able to face the balrog, but because of her own strength in battle (whether physical or spiritual), Nenya has nothing to do with it. Galadriel could shroud Lórien in mist with Nenya to cover it from the Balrog descending from the mountains, but in battle, the Ring won't help her much. It was made for understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained - and surely nothing of that could be of any use in a duel.