High Elves and the Balrogs

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

So we're all in agreement that no she-elf could possibly threaten a Balrog? :P lol
She'd probably be late for the duel anyway!

lol, well i suppose there would be a different concept to fighting to what we know with the addition of "magic" and species. No average human woman has ever been given any recognition, which can only mean that Elvish women were as competant as the men.. or close to, as regards physical exertion. Therefore, saying Galadriel was as we have defined her, i see no reason why she wouldn't be able to defend herself aptly - i just find it hard to believe, mainly because of the real world... and because she isn't depicted so much as a fighter, but more of a wise and majestic speciman

[obloquy]

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

No need to be offensive mate - don't forget Galadriel isn't actually real. My inability to picture Galadrial as a warrior comes from todays image as a woman not being a fighter, they still don't let women into the infantry... Also, never to my knowledge, which isn't law, has Galadriel ever fought an enemy with a lance in her hand, so to speak. I don't doubt her capability in mind, as we have already seen and heard from various people and book references. That is where i struggle to see Galadriel as a warrior.

To say i'm folly i think is quite rude, i shall refrain from retaliating, i didn't come here for an argument, i prefer debate.

[Boromir88]

Hammerhand, you are right that Galadriel isn't shown to be a fighter, especially by the Third Age. But I think the statement from UT of her being a match for both 'loremasters and athletes of the Eldar' goes to show that not only does she have 'mental toughness' but she is also physically strong.

Also take into consideration this...

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself. Galadriel may not be imagined as much of a fighter (since there isn't much said about her actually 'fighting.') But she was an extremely powerful Elf (the most powerful of the Third Age and one of the greatest period). So, she just wasn't some wise lady that gave out gifts and read people's thoughts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself.

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

I agree. Nevertheless, that does not undermine what Boro said about Galadriel. She was surely capable and powerful - in whatever means you think. I also think no one contested this. I think the only problem we have with her is that it's hard to imagine her with a sword (and in armor???) fighting against, let's say, even Fëanor's hordes at Alqualondë (hmm... was that even canonical? I think this is but one of the versions in UT, from whose no one knows which one to choose as granted...) Though, as I said, we have evidence that she was mighty even in that, as Boro said, so it's our limited imagination in which the problem lies.

[Boromir88]

Well Raynor, I think Nenya is part of 'that power' that dwells in Lorien. As the Elven Rings were made to sustain and protect against the 'weariness of time.' But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

I agree. However, I doubt that Galadriel "alone" would come close to the same results if she didn't have her ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

The fact that Celeborn led the host of Lorien while Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur has always suggested to me that she was wielding 'magic', while Celeborn led the physical assault.