Denethor's plunge

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh please! The fiery leap made it 'more interesting for newcomers'? What kind of person would prefer to see something so ridiculous, in a film featuring a world one is trying to immerse oneself in? Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story? A simple, horrifying shot of Denethor being consumed by flame, with the others watching aghast, would have been obviously better.

And the point about Boromir offers nothing: history is filled with thousands, nay, millions! of warriors who fight on, and kill, after suffering wounds. That scene wasn't unrealistic; the Denethor scene is, hopelessly so.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story?

Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by alatar

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

You forgot Frodo in Mount Doom, and Sam at the Black Gate, though these two weren't quite as dramatic.

On a whole, I was very dissapointed with Denethor. In the book, the first time I read it, I almost cried at Denethor's death. He is noble. It always bothered me that he was to much of a coward to face death in the movie. However bad he was, no one could call him a coward.

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

LOL!

We will just have to invent one.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by alatar

Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

Well after I read this post I was really ****ed at PJ for putting the falling sequence in there. But I think that the way Denethor dies in the book is more heroic in a way because he was not afraid to die and in the movie he just kind of started burning and was so incredibly scared that he ran and fell of the seventh level of Minis Tirith.

[alatar]

Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge:

• Denethor was of Númenórean blood.
• The Nazgûl presumedly were as well.
• On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."
• Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...
• Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing?
• Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent.
• Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information.
• Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway...
• Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes.
• Gandalf does seem to use what's available.

So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him.

A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..."

This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf.

It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch.

[MatthewM]

A comical post alatar, and I have to say I am glad this topic was brought back on subject as I kept dismissing checking the new posts because of the side-topics that plagued it for a bit.

I wonder if PJ realizes that Denethor's fiery plunge was one of the worst changes he made to the story?

The real story, in the books, is brilliant and naturally much, much, much better. You really feel sadness for Denethor in the books, yet in the movie this feeling is almost completely absent. It truly is a pity!

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by alatar

On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."

Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

Bursting my bubble? My good sir, you simply just make my case even more watertight. Now we know that there's a clothing store on the west side of the Ford in which Torchie was shopping.

And do you know from which - theatrical or EE version - the screen shot was captured.?

[Knight of Gondor]

The shot was present in both, although the screencaps site has all the extended shots, leading me to believe they're all from the EE.