Denethor's plunge

[Sauron the White]

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

My point is a simple one.

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

The point is this, in the film, yes we see several other scenes of the aproach to the tombs of the kings and can calculate how far it is, the number of stairs, degree of inclines, etc. Knight of Gondor showed this completely in his series of still on page one of this very thread. But in the film we see Denethor catching on fire, running out of the crypt and then a few seconds on the rampway before he takes the plunge.

I think this is called "willing suspension of disbelief". It is evident in films beyond LOTR. And it is evident in the LOTR book also.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Agreed. But the Professor, through his writing, convinces me that Balrogs are as common as clover, and so persons running 135 miles without Gatorade or a corporate sponsor is not unusual.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

As I know...once had to trace the biological path when a person rings a doorbell from the molecular to cognitive, and also worked with myosin, and so you can see by my name dropping that I can pretend to know running as you do.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

And movies and the nightly news ("Bigfoot captured on film voting for Clinton!")

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

I'm not a purist, but I take delight in making fun of the overtly silly as a way of questioning why the plunge, for example, was better than the pyre.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

And it is. Everyone has sacred cows penned up somewhere. Ever go cow-tipping?

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

Note that I'm a skeptic, and so would need hard evidence even if I saw the things that you witnessed. Sorry, that's just me.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.

I wouldn't have it otherwise. Challenge what I write, and I will do the same and we will be the better for it (and if I get annoying, let me know that too ).

[Sauron the White]

A very good reply Alatar - and in fine spirit and I appreciate that.

My point is simply that ALL OF US - you, me, the whole bunch of us, willingly suspend our disbelief for something we are willing to invest ourselves in. Its easy. And without it, much of literature and film would fall flat on its collective face.

Sidebar anecdote where I can talk about my kids---- my daughter - who is 30 - gave me the film TALLADEGA NIGHTS to watch the other day. She knows I hate contemporary silly comedies but said this one "was really funny". So I watched it and felt it was one of the worst films I had ever seen. She was highly offended when I told her. I reminded her of a scene where the characters explain that they have stripped all the sponsor decals off the racecar because not a single sponsor is still supporting them. Its the ME car since only they are behind it. Fine. But less than a minute later the car is revealed positively covered with dozens, perhaps scores of sponsor decals. When I mentioned this I was told I was making too much of it and I should just go with it.

And she was right. To enjoy that film, I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a little. Okay - I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a great deal. But I never liked it from the very start, was unwilling to invest myself into it, and thus every flaw stood out like a sore thumb.

I am not going to go on some Will Ferrell fan site and start bashing the movie. That would be pointless.

Does any of this make sense? Is my point coming across at all? This is a great site. But the smugness and air of superiority some of the True Believers have regarding the movies is a bit much given their own altar of worship. Your point about sacred cows it would appear is much the same.

[Quempel]

We should just call Mythbusters and let Adam and Jamie sort it all out.

It's a fantasy book and a fantasy film. No ring can actually make people disappear. Neither are there gaint eagles flying around with short hairy footed people in their claws. Hey maybe in a fantasy world people can run 145 miles in a day, and a man on fire can run up three flights of stairs through the woods and over the hill only to jump off a cliff. Its a fantasy. Not real. Both the book and the movie.

And for the record freezing someone in carbonite isn't real either. Nor are 50 foot apes.

[Knight of Gondor]

Aragorn was the greatest of living men, of a kind seldom seen in Middle-Earth, even in the third age. It is improbable that a regular man could run the distance he ran. Far more improbable that an eighty-something man could! But he was of the race of Numenor. Legolas was Elf-kind, that does not die. Gimli was of the hardy mountain-folk, a dwarf. None of these can modern science tell us anything about.

This is not a NORMAL world they live in. The sun is a vessel of light that sails overhead. A star is actually a Silmaril kindled on the breast of Elwing, who bore it to Earendil the mariner.

In reality, the dead cannot linger because of a curse pronounced by living man. No spell can hold a door closed in today's world, and as yet, no cloak is available to shield the body from the sight of enemies.

We don't go to Tolkien's world to read the ordinary. We go to read the extraordinary. Of course, this is not a blank check to superimpose an alternate reality whenever necessary. If the Three Hunters were more hardy in achieving their journey, it is not a dues ex machina to say this is fantasy. (Even Eomer was astounded at their deed, showing that there are still standards of performance which the Three Hunters surpassed.) It is simply an alternate world where extraordinary people do extraordinary things.

And if you simply must persist in dietary nitpicking, may I point out the unknown factor of the content of glycogen in lembas? Recall, without lembas, Frodo and Sam would have laid down to die long before achieving their mission.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor.... thank you for your post which proves in bold capital letters just my point. Many people here revel in some perverse delight in attacking the Jakcosn films while defending to the death every single word of the books. They use deductive reasoning, logic, calculations, common sense, mathematics, and any other device they can employ to make the films look bad. Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

I thought we were done on this topic yesterday when alatar and I appeared to reach a very acceptable accomodation and understanding. But if you want to go again, I will oblige you.

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Your explaination uses several of these to explain how it worked in LOTR. Ray Charles could have seen this coming.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

Four days, and that's assuming that the planet that is Middle Earth turned one every 24 hours. Without a sizeable satellite like our moon, who knows what its rotation would be...

alatar prepares to bring out quantum mechanics to defend to the death (of reason) the works of Tolkien.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

My take on Tolkien's world is that we're running down from concentrated power to the more mundane and pedestrian. Elves leave, the world no longer looks like Lorien, Men live shorter lives (from 900 years to 1/10 that, and when I get the time I will graph the life expectancy curve while noting the outlier that is Elessar), and so everything is not exactly like it is today. And note that superhuman distances, as you say, is subjective. Look at what human kind has done. The Great Wall, the Pyramids, Monday Night Football - these seemingly superhuman creations were created by the hands of average Joe's and Jane's, but they look unbelievable to me, and I have electricity.

Did the warrior messenger that ran the first marathon, Pheidippides, train extensively and wear custom made sneakers? Sure, he may have died after delivering his message, but that was due his seeing the Marathon to Athens bus schedule that would have taken him the same distance in a third of the time for 2 dinars.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

Four days. And Gimli may not be the sprinter that Jackson purported, but the creature did not tire. He most likely had to continually 'catch up' while the other two Hunters stood around and chatted about Legolas's hair, but still he could stay with them. And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a balloon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

You tend to see this trait in humans. Love is blind, and all that. My guess is that if you were to look into some of the other parts of the forum, you might see the same skepticism that you read so much here in regards to the Peter Jackson films.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

And Eru help the person who dares comment the least bit questioningly about Tolkien's style. They'd need at least Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak for self-defense.

*runs swiftly away--for how many miles or days I won't say--from al's quantum mechanics and the dread horseman*