Split Personality?

[Sauron the White]

littlemanpoet... it would seem that there is some middleground here that we both can stand upon with a degree of comfort. I am glad to hear you say that you see that some of the things Jackson did were better for the film.

I grant you that the death scene of Boromir was moving and was better for the movie than the book version, which was better for the book.

I see it pretty close to the way you do regarding this scene. A book does not have to be as dramatic and as emotional as a film does. What JRRT wrote was excellent for the book and worked extremely well. For the film version, it would have bordered on underplaying the whole moment. So Jackson made it more dramatic, more poignant and it turn took on more emotional resonance with the audience. And of course, that was Jacksons intent.

I see it much the same with the expanded role for Arwen within the LOTR story (as opposed to the Appendices). The entire Arwen-Argorn story is far more emotional in the film than it is in the book. In the book that type of showcase for the love story may have distracted from the rest of the tale and tried to turn the book into something it was never intended to be. But for the movie, what Jackson did worked well and it helped make the movie the success it was.

Perhaps the difference in how some of see these things is the perspective we are coming from. Allow me to explain how I have always seen this.

A book is one thing and a film is quite another. Each has its own internal laws, rules, constructions, devices, approaches, techniques and methods that further and aid in creating the world that it becomes. And each of these elements are somewhat different when you go from one medium to another. What makes for a great book does not always make for a great film.

I accept that and do not expect my films to look like my books.

I also accept the economic and business realities of the film making business and harbor no fantasies about what the true bottom line is and what the purpose of any film is.

In the end, I view the LOTR as a magnificent tale told by two different story tellers using two very different mediums. The story tellers are divided my more than half a century in time, and separated by different sides of the world. One had complete control of their end of the tale while the other had to work within from an established and beloved template and within a corporate and team concept. One had to answer to only himself since it was his own creation. The other had to answer to a host of masters, some of which had far different agendas.

So we end up with two LOTRs. The books and the films. Of course the books are THE LOTR. No doubt about that. The films are merely an adaption and can never supplant or gain the authenticity of the books. But having said that, the films are out there and were most likely seen by more people than who have read the books. In the minds of many, the LOTR has become the films. The story as portrayed in those films - for some viewers - is the LOTR. Sheer numbers have made it so.

The books are dearly loved by me ever since I read them right out of college in 1971. Among my most valued and treasured possessions are first editions - US sadly - of both THE HOBBIT and each of the three volumes of LOTR. I have the record album of THE POEMS AND SONGS OF MIDDLE EARTH with the actual signature of JRRT himself that came from the collection of a very well known and legitimate collector. I have lost count of how many times I have read the books and THE SILMARILLION over the last 36 years. And I have in the same room, shelf upon shelf of stuff from the films. I love and appreciate both for what they are.

The same story told by two different storytellers each emphasizing different parts and different characters but largely the same. At least, that is how I see it.

In reading many posts over the last six years on many sites, it is obvious that some people do not see it that way at all. And that is fine.

The one area we can debate about seems to be the following comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by STW
Jackson was tiptoeing on fragile glass during the entire pre-FOTR release period. He badly wanted fan support and did not want to do or say anything to dampen pre-film enthusiasm. Were some Tokien purists seduced by that and later felt abandoned? Possibly.... Its the final product that counts.

from littlemanpoet
What you're saying, essentially, is that the end justifies the means. Your contention here seems to be that PJ lied in order to seduce Tolkien fans to watch his movie. And that's not a problem? In other words, PJ was saying to Tolkien fans the same kind of thing Saruman said to Gandalf when he was trying to win him over in order to use him as a pawn. If you are correct, then what PJ did was base betrayal. Do you really think that was what PJ was doing? If so, then it's worse than anything I've critiqued him for.

Ends justifying the means? Who knows? Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I certainly do not believe in cutting off peoples limbs but I certainly can also concede the need for it given certain medical situations. Lots of things are like that. The older I get, the less I cling to rigid principles, absolute black-and-white right and wrongs, clear cut moral choices and all that.

If we are going to engage in a discussion as to IF Jackson lied and seduced Tolkien fans with his early remarks it would probably be a good idea to find those exact remarks and reproduce them. To accuse someone of "base betrayal" is a pretty damning charge. I give you credit with the comparison to Saruman - its very cute and clever but we both know that Jackson is not Saruman or any such creature. He is a filmmaker who took on a task that even JRRT himself that was not possible. Jackson is not evil in the sense that Saruman was.

You ask if I think PJ was guilty of that. NO. What I do think happened was that Jackson wanted to make the best series of films he could that made the most money both for his studio and for himself. To do that he did not want to alienate hardcore and longtime Tolkien fans. He tried to enlist their support early on. Did he lie? Dunno. Does everybody "lie" when they promise to love someone forever and then things end sadly apart? A lie is not the words but what is in the heart as the words are spoken. Only Jackson knows what his intentions were.

Based on all the stuff I have read and watching all those features on the DVD's, it is my individual opinion that Jackson tried to satisfy all his constituencies as best he could given the realities of the situation. And that would include Tolkien fans.

Also, Gimli being a terribly slow runner that held Aragorn and Legolas back was just something Jackson threw in because I guess he thought it would be funny.

This is a sore point with me that you may have seen on another thread here. Having been a long distance runner for the past thirty plus years, the idea of an untrained dwarf running 140 miles in three days over rough terrain is simply ludicrous beyond anything remotely approaching reality. Sure, JRRT throws in the obligatory comments from other characters to help explain and justify the superdwarf feat that Gimli is undertaking, but its absurd just the same. And I do not give a single whit about how "hardy" or "strong" dwarves are. Running and especially ultralong distance running - is a world of its own that has nothing to do with strength or hardiness. I do not view the handling of that three day run any better in the film than it was in the books. But at least in the film we were spared a daily listing of milage which only added to the impossibility of it all .

from Boromir 88

Then I went back through the books and noticed all the small things I missed with Boromir that made him my favourite character. Moments like when Pippin describes his 'lordly yet kindly manner,' moments that describe the bond between him and Faramir, moments where even Eomer of Rohan has great praise to say of Boromir, and even lines from Boromir like 'The Men of Minas Tirith do not abandon their friends in need.' Also we see that it is Boromir's strength that he adds to the Fellowship (something that the Fellowship greatly needed on Caradhras and in Moria).

I would mostly agree with your statement here. I too enjoyed the book Boromir more after seeing the films and picked up far more of the subtle nuances that Tolkien employed in his devolopemnt. If the film helped make that possible for both you and I, as well as others, then it is saying something very positive. You make a good point about the childish of Boromir being contrasted with is later growth as a character and that is valid. However, in the films, we have several other characters, dare I say more important characters, in their own stages of growth and development. Perhaps Jackosn felt that you could only have so much growth and development in changing characters and some had to be more constant. Especially in a character who is around for pretty much only the first film.

from Boromir88

Jackson was actually asked how he explains the Elves getting to Helm's Deep so fast he squirmed and looked at Walsh and Boyens...to which he answered that the Elves left almost immediately after the Fellowship left Lorien, and that scene in the movie with Galadriel and Elrond is a 'flashback.' Seems like he came up with a quick answer to cover his tail as he realized there was a mistake.

Well, at least he had some explaination for it..... and I say that a bit sheepishly. There are mistakes both in the book and in the films and this could well be one of them. I do think that given the physical gifts of the Elves, you can make a far more rational and logical case for a squadron of trained Elven warriors to make that journey than you can for a squat, chunky untrained dwarf. But I do understand the point and concede some of its validity. I do think - and some will crucify me for this - that there is a "now thats cool" factor in movies. When we see something totally cool - like the Elves marching into Helms Deep - it aids to our willing suspension of disbelief and we push those nagging milage questions to the back of our mind. Perhaps only to be resurrected a few years later on sites like this one.

from Boromir88

Yes I agree that getting rid of Tom Bombadil for the film was a very smart move. That would have been film suicide to put in Tom. But I agree with elempi that Tom certainly does have a purpose in the story, and adds a lot to the story. Afterall besides Balrogs Tom seems to have the most questions asked about him, so he has to be an interesting character to many many books fans out there.

Nice to see we agree on the film TB- or non-TB. I realize that this thread is not the place to discuss TB in detail. Perhaps you can refer me to where this has already been hashed out? Having read the books countless times I still see no actual purpose in him. If you excise him from the tale and come up with a different way to save the hobbits from the barrow wights, what is lost? Is that TBs main purpose? If not what is it?

from Boromir88

After watching the movies people expect to go into reading Tolkien and thinking there's going to be just lots and lots of slash'em up fighting. They are left dissappointed and dull when they find out that of the 1000+ page story probably only 20 pages describe actual fighting (if that).

If that is happeneing, then it is sad that they do not see the beauty, depth and complexity that the books offer. I quickly concede the point that there is much more action and fighting in the films than in the books. But I thinks its an unfair oversimplification to hang the label of a mere action flick on the films. Just yesterday I was watching FOTR with my six year old grandson and the amount of slash'em up fighting is rather small. There are large portions of the film which move rather slowly and have nothing to do with violence or fighting. Of course, the battles are the set pieces of the last two films, but we still have lots and lots of exposition, character development and other bits of business that the standard thud and blunder film never has.

Again, the books are one thing. The films are quite another. I am glad to see there is some middle ground here for many of us.

[alatar]

Catching up a bit:

• Boromir, the more I read this thread, sounds a lot like Turin "I wanna build a bridge" Turambar in they both wanted what they wanted now...or else there's going to be some complaining. I agree that not only did Sean Bean's/PJ'S Boromir come off better than in the books - and the EE version added to that - but placing the Steward's son's death in FotR was a great idea. Score one for the Anti-Purists!

• Can't remember in which post it appeared, but think that I been told that certain changes had to be made to update the material from whenever it was written into today's language. And yet when I propose Gollum as a normal gent who suddenly splits his personality to deal with a horrible trauma (he lost a friend for gosh sakes! ), I'm told that this is not the deep character that could have been. So I'll retract that theory and add this one, based a little more on Peter Jackson's words: Smeagol/Gollum is an addict. The Ring, the "drug" effects all, but like the real world some fall sooner than others. Was Smeagol more animal that hobbit in that his id was more control than his superego, making him more open to the call? Gandalf had the sense to not touch the thing; if he did, would he have been quickly ensnared?

• The elves left for Helm's Deep while Galadriel was waving. Celeborn, having seen the future of Middle Earth in the hands of Pippin, thought that he'd better send help south as soon as possible.

• The elves were one of PJ's experiments. We judge the results of that experiment by (1) its result and (2) by what we already know. I was fine with PJ placing elves at Helm's Deep - initially. Couldn't help but feel emotional when Aragorn hugs Haldir. So far, so good. But when the elves rush an enemy when they have arrows to burn, and when none survive (and are quickly forgotten) then I'd have to say that PJ was careless with his thinking. I'm all for trying the new, but he could at least follow through. Given the result, I would leave them out. Score one for the Purists!

• More about the running. Back in the day, we were conscripted into going on these walkathons where we'd get people to give us money for each mile/kilometer that we successfully walked. This money was then donated to charity. So we'd walk, and the first mile was like, "We're walking! We're walking!" while the later miles weren't so Yellow Brick Road and Dorothy-like. My shoes were the cheapest that my parents could afford, and my one relief was extra socks. So, on all occasions I was able to make the 18-20 mile (29-32 km) walks. Afterwards I was sore - which I guess was the point of it all - and we would complain the next day at school about what a big adventure the whole deal was. During the event, note that some passed us by like we were walking with cinder blocks attached to our legs, as they made the mileage in much less time. Now, here's how my brain works: if I can complete a distance of whatever miles in so much time, having no training, no professional equipment/support and definitely no sense, what could someone in the top 1% of all walkathoners of the world do?

• The lottery, with "Powerball" odds of 1 in 146,107,962, seems like a losing bet, and yet people play daily with the thinking that they will win. If one can overcome this logic, overcoming the leap of faith that three beings in a fantasy world can run 135 in 3 + days given that these persons may represent the top Middle Earth runners ever (save Tulkas) doesn't seem too hard to believe, (yes, I know it can't be done, but...), as from above if average me can walk 20 miles in a day and live to tell about it, right or wrong, I can extrapolate that someone could do more in less. You see in the papers stories about persons hitting the lottery twice, and so if they can win, so can I (if I played).

• What did Gollum want with the Ring? In the movie, as stated, it's shiny and he wants it. After this, he uses it as a way to eat (I think), but with the exception of getting him into the Books and Movies by giving him something to lose and pursue, what does the Ring do for Gollum?

• And lastly, regardless of Gollum, elves at Helm's Deep, Boromir and Faramir et al, PJ made successful films, and yet we will not ever know how much more or less successful if he were to have done it my way (which, of course, is the only right way of doing things).

[Sauron the White]

Oh Alatar... you take a great step forward but then.....

The lottery, with "Powerball" odds of 1 in 146,107,962, seems like a losing bet, and yet people play daily with the thinking that they will win. If one can overcome this logic, overcoming the leap of faith that three beings in a fantasy world can run 135 in 3 + days given that these persons may represent the top Middle Earth runners ever (save Tulkas) doesn't seem too hard to believe, (yes, I know it can't be done, but...), as from above if average me can walk 20 miles in a day and live to tell about it, right or wrong, I can extrapolate that someone could do more in less. You see in the papers stories about persons hitting the lottery twice, and so if they can win, so can I (if I played).

Walking 20 miles in one day and then resting your tired cinder-block legs for the next few days is light years different than an untrained, stocky, short-legged dwarf running 140 miles over three days time. Lottery? Allow me to quote the great Robert DeNiro in THE DEERHUNTER. "This is this. This isn't something else. This is this." We are not talking about the lottery or odds of anything. We are talking about the possibility or not of a four foot dwarf weighing some 200 pounds carrying weapons and wearing heavy boots, without running training, running 1.6 marathons each day for three straight days. It simply is not in the cards - to keep with your gambling metaphor.

JRRT was a wise man who knew lots of things. He was a great writer. But he didn't know squat about long distance running or how the human body and its muscles work.

I can concede the Elf ---- and maybe under the really right conditions Aragorn IF we infer that he has been racking up great distances striding around for years and call that long distance training. I can meet you two thirds of the way in this. But the Dwarf. NEVER!!!!!!

[Quempel]

*pop*

Where does it say in the movies or books that Gimli was an out of shape, non-trained coach potato? Tolkien said that dwarfs were hardy....And by the time the three had taken up the chase, hadn't Gimli actually walked a long way, say from Moria to Rivendale and from Rivendale back to Moria by way of the mountain tops?

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... I refer you to the thread here in Movies labeled as DENETHORS PLUNGE. If you look at pages two and three there is a debate there about this very topic with information I posted about the unique physical demands of long distance running. Simply put, its a unique physical activity that bears no relationship to strength, how hardy someone is, or how determined or motivated one is. Its a pure mathematical physiological formula based on training running long distances and the amount of glycogen one can pump and store into their muscles.

There is only one activity that prepares you for long distance running. It is long distance running. A person can work all day in a mine and labor hard and long and be in hardy condition. But that does not permit them to run even a mile.

Let alone the equal of 1.6 marathons for three days straight.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar ... aaaaahhhhh!!!! so what you are describing is your own unique way is what I call "willing suspension of disbelief". You believe it because you like the context of it all and want to go with it even though you know it makes no logical or real world sense.

I enjoyed the peanut butter story.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Alatar ... aaaaahhhhh!!!! so what you are describing is your own unique way is what I call "willing suspension of disbelief". You believe it because you like the context of it all and want to go with it even though you know it makes no logical or real world sense.

Thank you. What I hope that I'm describing is the ability of an author/movie maker/etc to make you forget or dismiss the "reality" of it all and to go along for the ride. WETA's Gollum was so real that we argue the psychology of the creature. The facial emotions - all CG at the end of the day - made me feel sadness, loathing, pity. The song at the end of TTT, Gollum's song, to me is both sad and spooky - and telling of the psyche of Gollum, and yet what is it? Digital notes, assembled words, the vocal resonating of a human larynx, and yet it moves...me.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Quempel ... I refer you to the thread here in Movies labeled as DENETHORS PLUNGE. If you look at pages two and three there is a debate there about this very topic with information I posted about the unique physical demands of long distance running. Simply put, its a unique physical activity that bears no relationship to strength, how hardy someone is, or how determined or motivated one is. Its a pure mathematical physiological formula based on training running long distances and the amount of glycogen one can pump and store into their muscles.

There is only one activity that prepares you for long distance running. It is long distance running. A person can work all day in a mine and labor hard and long and be in hardy condition. But that does not permit them to run even a mile.

Let alone the equal of 1.6 marathons for three days straight.

I have read the debate and almost posted there, however, I did not. Where in the movies or books does it say that Gimli was working in the mines before he went on the chase? He had been traveling, walking and running miles and miles each day, with the fellowship for many months. Does this conditioning count for nothing?

And just because Gimli is stout doesn't rule out he can't run. Those 250 pound linebackers are pretty stout and run miles every day, and during training its with their equipment on. The claim that Gimli is unable to run for miles, or even walk for miles because he hadn't trained is illogical, simply because he had been walking and running with the fellowship for many many months, not laying around in front of his big screen t.v. mining for cinderblock.

Even in American History there are stories of the pioneers walking 13-16 miles a day westward. These are men, women and children, none of which trained for marathons.

So again I ask where does it say Gimli was not in shape to run the distance?

Funny how some of us can suspend our disbelief and actually think an eyeball can float atop a tower, but a mythical dwarf can't run.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel .. I respectfully ask you this --- are you a long distance runner? people who are not know nothing about it. Check that - they know less than nothing because what they think they know is wrong. There is only one way to train for long distance running - check that - ultra-long distance running. And that is to put in lots of miles.

Its basic physiology and mathematics. Check it out on the net from someone other than me so you avoid my bias.

If you have evidence of Gimli doing long distance running to train to do those 140 miles in three days please post it so I can be corrected. I know of nothing that prepared him for this.

Do you? If so please post it.

Even in American History there are stories of the pioneers walking 13-16 miles a day westward. These are men, women and children, none of which trained for marathons.

This statement proves my point about non runners knowing less than nothing because what they think they know is wrong. A slow walk - the activity you are describing for the pioneers, would be about 3 miles per hour or five hours each day. The amount of calories burned would be about 250 to 280 per hour. An average person would deplete their glycogen reserves in about two hours and then experience fatigue and soreness. For a pioneer on the road for several months, they could build up where they could do this for five horus per day.

Please note that both you and I refer to walking. Walking is a far lower burn activity that takes a far lesser toll on muscles and glycogen reserves. A fast walk burns over twice that amount or nearly 600 calories per hours for a power walker. A runner burns 700 calories per hour.

To train for a 26 mile marathon, the normal person needs a base of 60 miles per week for 12 weeks with one day off each week to rest. This gives them a base figure of 10 miles per day. Rule of thumb is that you can do 2.5 times what you train for before you completely exhaust your body and begin to tear it down. So if you run 10 miles per day for 12 weeks you should be able to do 25 miles before "hitting the wall".

Look at the physiology of a dwarf. It is completely contrary to that of a long distance runner, let alone the ultra long distance runner. Running and power walking 45 miles in a single day would require a base of 12 weeks at nearly 20 miles per day. And then you hit the wall and need days more to recover before you can exercise at almost any level. The idea of running 1.6 marathons per day for three days in a row is something that only the extremes of the elite ultra-marathoners could ever attempt and do.

If you have solid evidence that Gimli trained at those levels please present it. I would be interested in reading it.

Funny how some of us can suspend our disbelief and actually think an eyeball can float atop a tower, but a mythical dwarf can't run.

I am happy you see this because that was my exact point when I brought up the ludicrous nature of Gimli running all those miles in three days time. It was my point from the very start of this that there are those who can read the books and can suspend their disbelief at those things but when it comes to things like the Denethor plunge, they get out their charts, graphs and distance measurements and show why it was physically impossible - because it was the movie. For them Peter Jackson is something a bit less than the anti-Christ and anything they can do to heap scorn or ridicule upon his movies is considered as fair game. But when it comes to the books, they give it wide latitude and willingly suspend their disbelief at far worse things.

I simply want all of us to play by the same rules. The books and the movies cannot work unless we engage in willing suspension of disbelief. Lets just have it work both ways.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

"This is this. This isn't something else. This is this."

I've anticipated your reply as in rereading my post I can see where I wasn't clear. Anyway, so here we go again:

One day a long time ago in class a friend of mine was rubbing her hands in a pained way. Seems that her fingers hurt, and this did not bode well as we were in a sign language class, and that required the use of one's fingers. I asked if she were okay, and she said that her arthritis was acting up. It was then that the conversation got interesting.

"Can't figure out why it's acting up...I've been eating peanut butter."

My brain stopped for a moment and reanalyzed what I thought that I'd heard. I checked the tape; yes she was somehow saying that peanut butter would help her joints. Sure, peanut butter, as far as I knew, wasn't bad, but somehow I guessed that she meant more than eating protein was good. So I asked.

My friend looked at me as if I were stupid and replied, "Peanut butter has oil in it. "

I must have still looked incredulous, so she continued, "The nuns told me that to prevent arthritis I should eat peanut butter." I figured that the nuns were just trying to get someone to eat peanut butter and found a lever in which to move one person. I asked by which mechanism peanut butter worked, and she explained, matter-the-factly that the oil therein lubricated joints, and with the quantity of peanut butter she was consuming, her joints should not be stiff.

She was and is a dear friend, and so I gently let her know that this isn't how it works.

Anyway, what does peanut butter oil have to do with Gollum/Smeagol and running? Little, but the point it that people see something - a creaky door hinge - and extrapolate from there. My friend, I think, saw the door hinge, saw how oiling it made it better, saw the hinges in her hands, knew that there is oil in peanut butter, added 2 + 2 and arrived at 22.

Tolkien gets us to 22 by choosing careful data from which to extrapolate - to go beyond the data. I can run so far (and though I am taller, not every reader obviously is, and just how much smaller do I see Gimli as being, having a mental and not real image with which to compare?) in a day. Aragorn and company are proved heroes. I've already bought the farm, and so 22.

Yes, I know you'll say 4, and in math/running/physiology/reality I agree, but Tolkien still gets most people to 22, and that's why he's one of the best. If PJ had Smeagol/Gollum wear a goofy hat each time the personality changed, the average viewer would add 2 +2 and get 4, then subtract 4 for stupidity.

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