The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

Why does the breaking of the Gate prove an increase in the Witch-King's power?

We were debating the meaning of "added demonic force". Neither we, the more knowledgeable fans, nor the first time reader, have witnessed the WK display such force, although he had ample reasons. In this specific context of debate, the alternative interpretation is rather unlikely, for reasons given in this thread.

[davem]

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

Provided he stood still ... I heard that trolls wielding a hundred-feet long ram are somewhat slow and clumsy.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Provided he stood still ... I heard that trolls wielding a hundred-feet long ram are somewhat slow and clumsy.

That's what they want you to think........

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, perhaps the Witch King could have defeated the Balrog - if he'd used a bloody great battering ram wielded by mountain trolls to stun him first.....

I think the Appendix B in Return of the King makes clear that it is really the Witch King who does this (not the battering ram):

March 15: In the early hours the Witch-king breaks the Gates of the City.

Up until this point, we mainly see the Witch King (along with the other Nazgul) using fear as their principal weapons, as is stated in the Unfinished Tales

Moreover, their chief weapon was terror.

or commanding armies, as the Witch King did in the attacks on Eriador from Angmar.

Plus, Tolkien makes specific mention of the augmentation of the Witch King's power, I just cannot find the quote at the moment.

Now whether this all translates to the ability to defeat a Balrog, I don't know. The Witch King only does pretty much what Sauron tells him to, so it would have to be a face off in which the power of Sauron comes up against the Balrog...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Plus, Tolkien makes specific mention of the augmentation of the Witch King's power, I just cannot find the quote at the moment.

No he doesn't.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What other power do you have in mind, before the Pelennor Fields, when his spells crush the gate?

The same kind of generic "power" Tolkien always refers to. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is fear, but the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others. Do you suppose he caused all the commotion he did solely because others feared him? It's no coincidence that he is the only one of the Nine who waged open war with the Free Peoples. We don't have any explicit examples of the Witch-King breaking a gate (ooooh! Powerful!) during that time period, but that doesn't mean he only received the power to do so in vol. III. It also doesn't mean that Sauron can beef up his servants at will. If he can, we must also assume that Gandalf can, since they are identical in nature (incarnate Maiar), and it surely would have been in the interest of the mission for Frodo to have gotten some "added angelic force."

From Unfinished Tales:

In the event Gollum escaped. But the passage of the bridge was effected. The forces there used were probably much less than men in Gondor thought. In the panic of the first assault, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgûl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.

If the Witch-King here is allowed to reveal himself briefly, it is logical to assume that at all other times he is required to conceal himself. Not so, however, on the Pelennor. The command position given to him provides him with an added force that the reader had not yet witnessed.

Besides, even if Sauron could make the Witch-King more powerful (capable of breaking gates! ) he could not raise him to his own level which is, more or less, the level both Gandalf and the Balrog are on.

Additionally, the Witch-King is delusional. He imagines that "no man may hinder" him, perhaps because of Glorfindel's prophecy--perhaps not. He also probably doesn't know what Gandalf is. His encounter with Gandalf was accidental (he did not know that Gandalf would be blocking his way when he came through the gate), and it reveals nothing about the Witch-King's strength. It does show us Gandalf standing in defiance of an army, knowing exactly who is at its head, however. Yet somehow, the Witch-King's smack-talk (after which he flees) provides all the proof you people need that he was up to taking on a being like Gandalf.

Finally, the letter simply does not say that Sauron gave the Witch-King "added demonic force." What it does say is that Sauron gave the Witch-King command of his army, from which he receives "an added demonic force." This interpretation of the letter is based on what Tolkien might have meant by that and not what is actually written.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, the Witch-King is delusional. He imagines that "no man may hinder" him, perhaps because of Glorfindel's prophecy--perhaps not. He also probably doesn't know what Gandalf is. His encounter with Gandalf was accidental (he did not know that Gandalf would be blocking his way when he came through the gate), and it reveals nothing about the Witch-King's strength. It does show us Gandalf standing in defiance of an army, knowing exactly who is at its head, however. Yet somehow, the Witch-King's smack-talk (after which he flees) provides all the proof you people need that he was up to taking on a being like Gandalf.

I agree with the first statement. I believe he is delusional, and in fact this leads to his downfall, although it is not clear that he knew of Glorfindel's prophecy (how would he?)

He is familiar with Gandalf--he just faced him on Weathertop, where presumably the fireworks were chiefly from Gandalf...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I agree with the first statement. I believe he is delusional, and in fact this leads to his downfall, although it is not clear that he knew of Glorfindel's prophecy (how would he?)

He is familiar with Gandalf--he just faced him on Weathertop, where presumably the fireworks were chiefly from Gandalf...

He faced him, but Gandalf always restrained himself. The encounter on Weathertop did not reveal Gandalf's nature or true power by a long shot.

[Boromir88]

Sauron could 'pour' his power into things, he did so with the One Ring. However, Sauron was not like Morgoth who just 'squandered' his power into everything, to control/corrupt everything, and in doing so weakening himself. Sauron took his far lesser power than Morgoth had and put it into a Ring; actually causing himself to be 'enhanced'. So, as obloquy said before, Sauron just giving out power gains to people doesn't really follow the way Sauron did things.

Let's put this Letter 210 into a little context. It was written to Forest J. Ackerman, and is Tolkien's commentary on film treatment of his books (specifically towards Morton Zimmerman). To say that Tolkien didn't like Zimmerman is rather understating things. Tolkien completely rips into Zimmerman's script, and despised it so badly that he refused to comment on his script from ROTK saying:

Part III .... is totally unacceptable to me, as a whole and in detail. If it is meant as notes only for a section of something like the pictorial length of I and II, then in the filling out it must be brought into relation with the book, and its gross alterations of that corrected. If it is meant to represent only a kind of short finale, then all I can say is: The Lord of the Rings cannot be garbled like that.

And as said, Tolkien 'not liking' Zimmerman is an understatement:

"I should say Zimmerman...is quite incapable of excerpting or adapting the 'spoken words' of the book. He is hasty, insensitive, and impertinent."

This was Tolkien's comments after receiving the screenplay from Zimmerman and a few months later he would write to Ackerman Letter 210.

So, what is the point? As obloquy has argued this supposed power boost only appears in one place, and in a letter that Tolkien seemed to be very nit picky, even to the point of a rant in his strong 'disapproval' of Zimmerman's script. There is already one part in that letter where Tolkien contradicts something that he wrote in LOTR:

20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward...~The Bridge of Khazad-dum

What Tolkien consciously wrote in his letters, after writing LOTR, is interesting insight but has to be used a little cautiously. Especially if it's a Letter to someone he probably didn't like (as Ackerman got the project of trying to make LOTR into a movie going) and ranting about someone's screenplay he definitely didn't have any respect for.

Let's also look at other parts of the Letter:

9. Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider.

Than the quote continues with what's being debated...the whole 'added demonic force.' #9 is completely about the primary weapon of the Nazgul...their fear. There is no mentioning about the Witch-King's 'combat prowess,' or abilities as a sorcerer, it's Tolkien commenting that Aragorn would never have left Bree at night, because at night the Nazgul's 'fear' is greatly increased.

(Why can we use the whole part about the Nazgul's 'fear' in this Letter, while questioning the 'accuracy' of other parts of the Letter? Because, Tolkien commenting on their primary weapon - fear - does not contradict anything that he wrote in his story. We can see the Nazgul rely on fear and have a great advantage to those who 'fear' them, but to those who do not fear them, the Nazgul don't seem to be much of a threat).

Then again, we know from the Hunt for the ring, UT, that Sauron conveyed to the WK that secrecy must be abandoned - that is, before Frodo set out on his quest.~Raynor

Yet, he is still not in the role that he was at in Pelennor Fields. Sauron was hoping to keep the purpose of the Ringwraiths on the 'DL':

Thus Sauron tested the strength and preparedness of Denethor, and found them more than he had hoped. But that troubled him little, since he had used little force in the assault, and his chief purpose was that the coming forth of the Nazgul should appear only as part of his policy of war against Gondor.~Unfinished Tales; Hunt for the Ring

Because he wanted secrecy at this time...

The Lord of Morgul therefor led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible to eyes...~ibid

However, as you mention, Sauron eventually comes to want speed more than secrecy:

For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the forth going of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.~ibid

This however doesn't mean the Witch-King was willing and able to reveal his full power...this just means forget sneaking around secretly, Sauron wanted to find out where the Ring was and get it as soon as possible. As Radagast tells Gandalf about the Nine being around:

"I have an urgent errand," he said. "My news is evil." Then he looked about him, as if the hedges might have ears. "Nazgul," he whispereed. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."~The Council of Elrond

Which is where the Witch-King (and his cronies ) start running all over the place to find the Ring (to Saruman in Orthanc, to Grima in Rohan, to Sarn Ford, and eventually to The Shire). In the meantime of doing this the Witch-King wasn't like how Mr. Jackson portrayed that went rushing through slicing off everyone's head...nor was he commanding an army. He was looking for information, hence why he paid a visit to Saruman and Grima...and if people stood in his way that he had the capability of defeating (as the Dunedain had attempted) well then comes the head slicing.

This is what I meant by my comment about his 'rise in status.' Not that the Witch-King grew in Sauron's heirarchy (he was already at the top), but that his role is different. At the start, him and his merry gang, are searching for the Ring where he doesn't need to use (nor show his full power), but at Pelennor he is in the position where he has to show his full power.

Why would the Witch-King conceal his full power and not go around displaying his 'grandeur?' Why does Gandalf conceal his full power when he's with his friends? In Gandalf's case, he is restricted from revealing his full power to Men and Elves. With the Witch-King he is looking for information about the Ring, he doesn't want to go around shattering house doors, or slicing off the heads of possible informants:

In that hour the Wormtongue came near to death by terror; but being inured to treachery he would have told all that he knew under less thread.~Hunt for the Ring

At Pelennor Fields, the situation has changed, he no longer is out trying to gather information about the Ring, his job is to burn Minas Tirith to the ground for his Master. So he is in a position where he has to use his full ability. Grond wasn't breaking down the gate (it had been pounding for quite a while) so the Witch-King comes by to assist Grond in breaking down the gate. Once the gate is broken everyone flees before him, except for one - Gandalf - The Witch-King may not have known Gandalf's full abilities, but this isn't the first time they've met...Gandalf proved to be difficult against the Nine before, but also the very fact that he stands alone, ready to fight while everyone else fled must be a pretty big tip off to Gandalf's power. So, the Witch-King tries to play his biggest card...fear, he laughs, mocks, lights up his sword...but after all that 'Gandalf stood unmoving' and the Witch-King leaves.

Well, if you choose to ignore the prologue, Gandalf's and Bombadil's words depicting the WK to the reader as a leader of armies .... fine.~Raynor

Those are small glimpses, little snippets, of the Witch-King's command role. He is not in that position for a majority of the story, but he was in the glimpses we get of the past:

"For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear."~The Council of Elrond

Letter 210 is the only place where if the Witch-King received a 'power uppage' than that's where it is. So, Tolkien contradicted himself, as it wasn't Sauron's nature to start boosting up the power of his servants and spreading it everywhere. Also, taking into account who the letter was written to and the context; you may argue just how accurate is this?

Or, it's as obloquy has argued...the role of the Witch-King is entirely different in the first two books than it was in the third. In the first two books the Witch-King is concealing his power because he is out looking for information, and there rarely was a need, or a purpose, to start breaking down gates and displaying his full abilities. When there was a need (for example the Nazgul crossing over the Anduin, or defeating the Rangers at Sarn Ford) than he could briefly reveal himself. However, these instances still don't require the Witch-King unleashing his full force, just enough so he could get the job done (as his task was still to look for the Ring). Where Pelennor Fields is entirely different, and we see the Witch-King (in the context of the Lord of the Rings) in a role we haven't had before. In the command of Sauron's second largest army, who's goal is to destroy Minas Tirith. Opposing him are some pesky Gondorians, but also Gandalf who has given him problems before and is the only one who stands in his way at the Gate (a gate that was dang hard to break down ). A situation which calls for the Witch-King to unleash his full bag of tricks and abilities as a sorcerer. Before Pelennor Fields, we get little comments of the Witch-King's ability as a 'great sorcerer' and his role as a leader, but now the reader actually can 'see' his power; and not just from several vague comments made by Tolkien's characters.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

If he can, we must also assume that Gandalf can, since they are identical in nature (incarnate Maiar), and it surely would have been in the interest of the mission for Frodo to have gotten some "added angelic force."

Then again, we don't know how lawful such a transfer of power would be, especially in the context of the istari mission, nor is the relation between the nazgul & Sauron comparable to that between Gandalf and Frodo. Plus, Sauron learned a lot of sorcery from Morgoth, while the subject apparently presented little interest to Olorin.

If the Witch-King here is allowed to reveal himself briefly, it is logical to assume that at all other times he is required to conceal himself.

Then again, this happened in June, before secrecy was no longer required.

Finally, the letter simply does not say that Sauron gave the Witch-King "added demonic force." What it does say is that Sauron gave the Witch-King command of his army, from which he receives "an added demonic force."

You are twisting the phrase:

There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

Nowhere does it say that from the command of his army he receives an added demonic force. You are adding your own words.

Originally Posted by Boro

As Radagast tells Gandalf about the Nine being around:

That also happened before September, although your ordering of events might lead one to think otherwise.

However, these instances still don't require the Witch-King unleashing his full force, just enough so he could get the job done (as his task was still to look for the Ring).

I disagree. Getting the ring was far more important than anything else for Sauron, and the WK was dismayed at the threats he received from his master, together with the order to abandon secrecy.

Those are small glimpses, little snippets, of the Witch-King's command role.

Well, these "snippets" come from some of the most authoritative sources, including the author. In fact, he comes off more as a leader of armies in those "snippets" than here, where he is a singular figure, wielding his sword in flames. These are the image and actions of WK as a demonic power, never before seen by the reader at such a level.

[davem]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I think the Appendix B in Return of the King makes clear that it is really the Witch King who does this (not the battering ram):

No - its shorthand: the WK is in charge of Sauron's armies, hence he 'breaks the gate'.

The drums rolled louder. Fires leaped up. Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

[QUOTE]

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone. Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

The point I was making in my flip comment was that if the WK had the power to break the gates then why use Grond - why indeed spend so long forging it? Grond was designed for a single purpose - to batter down the gates of Minas Tirith. If the only example that's being offered for the WK being given 'extra' power is the breaking of the gate then its not a good one. The WK may utter words in an unknown tongue but he does it in conjunction with the use of a devastating (physical) weapon against a physical object. Of course, the implication is that he used spells to weaken the stone & metal of the gate & gateposts - & there's the 'lightning' too - but this is clearly not sufficient to break the gates without a battering ram.

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram. Of course, its his ram, so he broke the gates. To argue that because App B states he 'broke the gates' Grond played no part is like arguing that saying the WK 'stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' implies that the Morgul Blade was irrelevant. The WK broke the Gates with Grond & he stabbed Frodo with the Morgul Blade. He couldn't have performed either act without the object.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram.

I don't see why breaking the gates with the ram implies that the WK couldn't do it by himself. He may very well be capable, but it may weaken him too much to be worth it, in such circumstances. What Tolkien said about the use of magic vs. use of slave and technology I believe applies here as well:

Originally Posted by Letter #155

But the magia may not be easy to come by, and at any rate if you have command of abundant slave-labour or machinery (often only the same thing concealed), it may be as quick or quick enough to push mountains over, wreck forests, or build pyramids by such means.

Even if using the ram would be more costly in troops casualties, it would not be something that would concern the WK, if it can better further his plans.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see why breaking the gates with the ram implies that the WK couldn't do it by himself. He may very well be capable, but it may weaken him too much to be worth it, in such circumstances.

Maybe he could - & maybe he could have turned Frodo into a Wraith without the use of a Morgul Blade, & maybe you're correct that Rams & Blades are 'labour-saving devices', but all this is speculation. The fact is that the WK used Grond & spells to break the gates, & we don't know whether he could have broken them on his own. In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force' - all it proves is that he's able, with a combination of spells & a battering ram, to do a bit of breaking & entering.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

In itself the breaking of the Gates proves nothing about whether the WK had 'extra demonic force'

True, not itself. But taking into consideration that the reader doesn't see the WK display such power, although he had far more reasons to do so previously, I believe the question of added force is a pertinent one. Capturing Gondor with a huge army presents a less pressing reason to use full power than capturing the one ring, especially if under dismaying threats and no restriction of secrecy.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

If the WK had the power to break the gates unaided then he would have done. He couldn't. Hence he had to use a battering ram. Of course, its his ram, so he broke the gates. To argue that because App B states he 'broke the gates' Grond played no part is like arguing that saying the WK 'stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' implies that the Morgul Blade was irrelevant. The WK broke the Gates with Grond & he stabbed Frodo with the Morgul Blade. He couldn't have performed either act without the object.

I didn't say the battering ram played no part. I simply said the Witch King was primarily responsible, although this is open to other interpretations like yours above.

However, note also that the Witch King's spell is more than just striking fear, or cheerleading, since it is said that

...speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

with the emphasis on "stone" added by myself. Given this extra information about the power here, I would say that your interpretation of the quote from Appendix B, while a viable one, is just one of those possible.

[davem]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I didn't say the battering ram played no part. I simply said the Witch King was primarily responsible,

And I say the battering ram was more than sufficient to do it - given a bit more time. And this is the point - this is speculation. It can't be used to support a claim that the WK was 'extra powerful' at that point - the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by davem

And I say the battering ram was more than sufficient to do it - given a bit more time. And this is the point - this is speculation. It can't be used to support a claim that the WK was 'extra powerful' at that point - the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

I agree that by itself, this is speculative. This is meaningful in conjunction with Tolkien's statement that the WK has added demonic power. This statement is also open for various possible interpretations.

However I don't see any evidence that

the only conclusion that can be drawn from the breaking of the gates is that under the right circumstances they could be broken.

How do you prove that this is the only conclusion?