Pullman rips on LOTR, others - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sir Kohran · 11-11-2007, 09:18 AM

Pullman is the Noel Gallagher of literature, constantly criticising pretty much everyone else in the business.

As to the 'Republic Of Heaven'...it's his dream; Pullman's idea of a perfect world - an atheist republic without a single ruler - a world without God. Personally I find the idea and his portrayal of Christianity revolting but then free speech must be maintained.

As for the movie versions of HDM...I don't expect much. It'll be like the Potter or Narnia movies, with plenty of special effects and 'drama' with no real reason to watch again after the initial view. I might be dragged along by my family at Christmas or something but I think that's as far as it'll go.

Tolkien's view on 'God' is interesting in that it is not what you'd expect of a Christian writer. He was a devout Catholic and indeed, the characters in his book show very Christian outlooks and themes (temptation, pity, etc.). However I've always found it interesting that Eru, regardless of his boundless power and influence, is, to the people in the story, almost non-existent. None of the characters ever pray to him; in fact he is not even mentioned once in all of LOTR. As it is the only 'faith in a higher power' is in the Valar (angels, not God). Eru does little or nothing to stop the spread of evil in his perfect world, stepping in only once to remove Morgoth from Arda - and only once much of the world has been ruined and corrupted (also note that Eru does nothing to help the world after this). Some might argue that he caused Gollum to slip - but this is never confirmed by the text (there is in fact the slightly chilling possibility that it was literally just a random slip - that Middle-Earth was saved by accident). Tolkien's portrayal of God is surprising - Eru is not loving, or even present. Eru doesn't seem to care for his world.

Lush · 11-14-2007, 06:43 AM

Pullman's still at it, eh? Well, in regards to filming "His Dark Mojo" (haha) - he knows how the business works, I'll give him that much. And he's a wonderful writer and deserves all the success and adulation this little world of ours can offer.

However, the attacks on Tolkien are getting a bit tiring. First Hitchens, now this... I understand that for Pullman, it's probably very frustrating to invariably get lumped together with Tolkien when it comes to the way that HDM is assessed and placed in context of literary history. Which is, perhaps, why he feels the need to trash Tolkien repeteadly.

But doesn't he realize that, on some level, these attacks are hurting him, not Tolkien? That it's starting to look like the lady doth protest too much and all that?

He must. He's probably one of the smartest men alive in the world today. Maybe it's the media attention that's really at stake here. God knows, the culture is almost entirely soundbyte-driven these days. And who could pass up a soundbyte before the release of a major motion picture?

Quempel · 11-14-2007, 02:50 PM

I have read HDM, and if Pullman could get passed re-writing Paradise Lost to fit his own needs, I might have something more to say. At least Tolkien went all the way back to the European Mythos to draw from.

I guess I will stand as one of the immature dolts that read Tolkien.

Nerwen · 11-17-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lush

However, the attacks on Tolkien are getting a bit tiring. First Hitchens, now this... I understand that for Pullman, it's probably very frustrating to invariably get lumped together with Tolkien when it comes to the way that HDM is assessed and placed in context of literary history. Which is, perhaps, why he feels the need to trash Tolkien repeteadly.

Or maybe, when he was still an unknown, one too many publishers sent back his manuscripts with advice to write something more like The Lord of the Rings, because that's what sells.

Lush · 11-18-2007, 07:05 PM

I think you've brought up an interesting point, N. Bookstore are littered with these carbon-copies of Tolkien - and that stuff sells also. Some of it is very good... some of it is like a romance novel with dragons.

Pullman strikes me as very cerebral and high-arty, but it may very well be that the stuff that imititates Tolkien has actually replaced Tolkien in his mind. Although I do not know how that man thinks. Just total speculation.

I'd ask him if I ever met him, but what if he totally loses it then?

Nerwen · 11-20-2007, 02:24 AM

He probably would!

Guinevere · 11-22-2007, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally said byPhilipp Pullman:
"'Lord of the Rings,' which I take to be a trivial book."
“just fancy spun candy. There’s no substance to it.”
“ ‘The Lord of the Rings’ is fundamentally an infantile work,”

Grrr...

reading such public statements really gets my hackles up!

Like gorthaur_cruel and Quempel mentioned,
this is really quite insulting to all of us who love Tolkien's works and have found meaning and timeless wisdom in them.
And how would Pullman explain the fact that there is so much secondary literature about Tolkien, so many educated and intelligent people occupying themselves with Tolkien's works since decades? Are all these people "immature dolts"?
Really, Philip Pullman should be forced to read Prof. Shippeys book "Tolkien, author of the Century"!!

I have read the "His Dark Materials Trilogy" this year, just so I could form an opinion on Pullman's own writing.
I must admit, that they were very thrilling to read, I liked especially the first volume, but the farther I got, the less I liked it, and the end was downright disappointing. (I agree much with William Cloud Hickly's post!)
They are well written, so one can't stop reading, but once finished, there's nothing that would make me go back and reread , quite unlike LotR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lush

Pullman strikes me as very cerebral and high-arty, but it may very well be that the stuff that imititates Tolkien has actually replaced Tolkien in his mind.

Ha! I really think you are on the right track, Lush!

After all, Pullman said he read the LotR as an adolescent and it doesn't look like he has reread the book since then, let alone the Silmarillion. So his misjudgement on LotR derives from hazy memories of an adolescent (who obviously read it just as an adventure story, much like Peter Jackson did) or perhaps even from seeing the movies.

He is obviously biased by knowing that Tolkien was a devout Catholic.
Like Sir Kohran wrote in his excellent post, in LotR God (Eru) is never mentioned. The hobbits have no religion at all.
It's more about the Northern "Theory of Courage":doing the right thing, because it is right, and not because you get a reward in heaven. But obviously Pullman doesn't see or remember this at all.
And if he states that

Quote:

“Tolkien is not interested in the way grownup, adult human beings interact with each other.

he should read "Aldarion and Erendis" .

davem · 12-07-2007, 01:00 AM

Brilliant demolition of HDM:
http://johncwright.livejournal.com/134046.html

Alonna · 12-07-2007, 01:36 AM

If Mr. Pullman thinks as highly of himself as he seems to based on his interviews, I wonder if he can explain why everyone is trashing the film version of his book. It is currently labeled as rotten by Rotten Tomatoes. Perhaps he should take a long look at why the film version of the "trivial book" turned out to be a far better film than the adaptation of his own.

11-11-2007, 09:18 AM	#1
Sir Kohran Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England, UK Posts: 178	Pullman is the Noel Gallagher of literature, constantly criticising pretty much everyone else in the business. As to the 'Republic Of Heaven'...it's his dream; Pullman's idea of a perfect world - an atheist republic without a single ruler - a world without God. Personally I find the idea and his portrayal of Christianity revolting but then free speech must be maintained. As for the movie versions of HDM...I don't expect much. It'll be like the Potter or Narnia movies, with plenty of special effects and 'drama' with no real reason to watch again after the initial view. I might be dragged along by my family at Christmas or something but I think that's as far as it'll go. Tolkien's view on 'God' is interesting in that it is not what you'd expect of a Christian writer. He was a devout Catholic and indeed, the characters in his book show very Christian outlooks and themes (temptation, pity, etc.). However I've always found it interesting that Eru, regardless of his boundless power and influence, is, to the people in the story, almost non-existent. None of the characters ever pray to him; in fact he is not even mentioned once in all of LOTR. As it is the only 'faith in a higher power' is in the Valar (angels, not God). Eru does little or nothing to stop the spread of evil in his perfect world, stepping in only once to remove Morgoth from Arda - and only once much of the world has been ruined and corrupted (also note that Eru does nothing to help the world after this). Some might argue that he caused Gollum to slip - but this is never confirmed by the text (there is in fact the slightly chilling possibility that it was literally just a random slip - that Middle-Earth was saved by accident). Tolkien's portrayal of God is surprising - Eru is not loving, or even present. Eru doesn't seem to care for his world. __________________ 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

11-14-2007, 06:43 AM	#2
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Pullman's still at it, eh? Well, in regards to filming "His Dark Mojo" (haha) - he knows how the business works, I'll give him that much. And he's a wonderful writer and deserves all the success and adulation this little world of ours can offer. However, the attacks on Tolkien are getting a bit tiring. First Hitchens, now this... I understand that for Pullman, it's probably very frustrating to invariably get lumped together with Tolkien when it comes to the way that HDM is assessed and placed in context of literary history. Which is, perhaps, why he feels the need to trash Tolkien repeteadly. But doesn't he realize that, on some level, these attacks are hurting him, not Tolkien? That it's starting to look like the lady doth protest too much and all that? He must. He's probably one of the smartest men alive in the world today. Maybe it's the media attention that's really at stake here. God knows, the culture is almost entirely soundbyte-driven these days. And who could pass up a soundbyte before the release of a major motion picture? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

11-14-2007, 02:50 PM	#3
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	I have read HDM, and if Pullman could get passed re-writing Paradise Lost to fit his own needs, I might have something more to say. At least Tolkien went all the way back to the European Mythos to draw from. I guess I will stand as one of the immature dolts that read Tolkien. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

11-18-2007, 07:05 PM	#5
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I think you've brought up an interesting point, N. Bookstore are littered with these carbon-copies of Tolkien - and that stuff sells also. Some of it is very good... some of it is like a romance novel with dragons. Pullman strikes me as very cerebral and high-arty, but it may very well be that the stuff that imititates Tolkien has actually replaced Tolkien in his mind. Although I do not know how that man thinks. Just total speculation. I'd ask him if I ever met him, but what if he totally loses it then? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

12-07-2007, 01:00 AM	#8
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Brilliant demolition of HDM: http://johncwright.livejournal.com/134046.html __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

11-20-2007, 02:24 AM	#6
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	He probably would!

12-07-2007, 01:36 AM	#9
Alonna Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 33	If Mr. Pullman thinks as highly of himself as he seems to based on his interviews, I wonder if he can explain why everyone is trashing the film version of his book. It is currently labeled as rotten by Rotten Tomatoes. Perhaps he should take a long look at why the film version of the "trivial book" turned out to be a far better film than the adaptation of his own.