Orcseys - always Evil?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

alatar's proposition seems a little bit too "mechanic" to me. First, I don't like it, the idea just seems awful to me. And furthermore, I believe that it wouldn't work much. But that's not what I wanted to speak of, since I just got a different idea. It would create a response to certain kind of questions, but only under certain circumstances. Not everyone has to agree with me. But here is the idea I got after reading the last sentence I quote from Gothmog - please read it:

Originally Posted by Gothmog

This raises new questions. Why would Eru give these wretched creatures, the mockery of his own children, the benefit of a soul? And the question that is important for this thread: why would Eru grant such a gift to something destinied for evil deeds without a possibility to redeem themselves? That doesn't make sense.

I would like to show here that it would make perfect sense. I would like to presume here that Orcs, if they have free will, could be redeemed. Now, Eru is the only one who could give them one. Follow, please, my thoughts:

Presumption (and a prerequisite): Eru is using all things, even bad things, and brings them to ultimately good ends in new and unexpected ways. This is absolutely logical, and what more, it is shown even before (Ainulindalë, water, snow, all the stuff).

Consequence: It makes perfect sense that the Orcs are redeemed. Created by Morgoth in the mockery of Elves and/or Men, they are, against all odds, given Fëar (!) and thus, also free will. What more, there may start to appear some individuals or groups among them who reject evil and ultimately, are redeemed. It is a slow process and it involves falls and setbacks, but since it is brought into motion by Eru himself, it never ceases. What does that mean: Once Eru gave the Orcs Fëar, it means he espoused himself with the Orcs. He says: "Yes, you are my Children as much as Men or Elves." From that point, he is expected to act on behalf of his Children - including the Orcs. He obviously does. The destruction of the Ring and fall of Sauron is probably even larger victory for the Orcs than it is for the Men. It means the end of slavery. One can only guess how it went in the further Ages. But given what I mentioned above - the redemptive way Eru works with all things - gives the possibility to think of more Orc individuals or groups who may start a new way of living, and not just lives of raids and robbery.

It is a theory. And it is based on observation - but this time not concerning Orcs, but concerning Eru. Maybe it would not work like that. But given the way he acts (and we don't see him acting very often, but when we do, we can get some basic glimpse of certain way of acting), I would expect him to do this.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

alatar's proposition seems a little bit too "mechanic" to me.

Does not the mechanism exist? Corrupted beings go West and get cured.

First, I don't like it, the idea just seems awful to me.

Why not, and why awful?

What was the fate of gutless traitors like Maeglin and Celegorm and what of the Kinslayers? Where be their eternal fate? Why must the orcs, cursed from birth, be unworthy of some hope?

Note that I agree with davem's earlier post in that only adults are concerned that the orcs are well-fed and have the offer of salvation; my proposal is one of logic.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I doubt there is a solution. Originally the young Tolkien just needed hordes of cannon-fodder who could be slaughtered without compunction. Under the old dispensation, they were 'made' by Melko, so what the hell.

As Tolkien applied deeper and deeper thought to Evil's sterility, and the problem of salvation, and on and on and on, he made an intractable conundrum for himself.

If Tolkien couldn't solve it, how could we?

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I doubt there is a solution. Originally the young Tolkien just needed hordes of cannon-fodder who could be slaughtered without compunction. Under the old dispensation, they were 'made' by Melko, so what the hell.

As Tolkien applied deeper and deeper thought to Evil's sterility, and the problem of salvation, and on and on and on, he made an intractable conundrum for himself.

If Tolkien couldn't solve it, how could we?

Yes, unfortunately Tolkien increasingly felt a need to 'explain' aspects of his creation - hence the dead end of 'Myths Transformed'. Its as if he became dissatisfied with 'magic', with Faery itself in a way - which in its essence is beyond logic & cannot be explained - or only 'explained' badly & unconvincingly.

Orcs are best seen & thought of as bad guys & 'cannon-fodder', & any 'explanation' of them offered by Tolkien taken & filed away, because we don't need it. In the 'great works' like LotR, CoH & much of the Sil itself (even in TH) we don't need to know where Orcs originated - in fact the various theories Tolkien came up with just get in the way.

Sadly, too much of Tolkien's later writing on M-e was little better than a dead end with only a certain curiosity value. If only he had spent his creative energies in completing CoH, Beren & Luthien & The Fall of Gondolin, rather than dissipating them in the confused, dissonant mish-mash of stuff like the Athrabeth, Laws & Customs & 'Myths Transformed'.....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Does not the mechanism exist? Corrupted beings go West and get cured.

Let me explain. What I meant was (and that was also the "awful" part), that you made it sound like a mechanic process, sort of a "reconditioning camp". Now that would be really awful. For the Elves, they went where they longed, to see the light of the Trees and everything, to finally rest after the long years in the fading world. For Frodo and all these folks who could not enter Valinor directly, it was also a rest. But for the Orcs, it would become something very nasty. I mean - of course not if they chose it themselves, like Frodo or others. If an Orc - in Middle-Earth - changed his mind, became "good" and everything, then as a sort of "reward" he could be allowed to go to Eressëa. Wonderful thing. But you made it sound to me like a bunch of Elves arriving with large ships and "Come on, all Orcs, pick the green armbands, yes, line up here, please, and to the ship. Yes, sir, over there. Large Orcs to the large ships, small Orcs to the smaller ships. No, sir, this ship is full. Eighty passengers maximum. Proceed to the next one, please..."

Originally Posted by alatar

What was the fate of gutless traitors like Maeglin and Celegorm and what of the Kinslayers? Where be their eternal fate? Why must the orcs, cursed from birth, be unworthy of some hope?

And to this question, my response was NO, given the logic they would have it: the Orcs are saved, but not because of any re-educational program, but by the grace of Eru himself, to use that term. I said that all in my previous post - from giving Fëar to the Orcs to the possibility of ultimate personal redemption of every single one of them. I said it was a theory and I said not everyone has to agree with it, and the logic I was using is explained above. If there is anything that is not clear, anyone is free to ask, of course.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Let me explain. What I meant was (and that was also the "awful" part), that you made it sound like a mechanic process, sort of a "reconditioning camp". Now that would be really awful. For the Elves, they went where they longed, to see the light of the Trees and everything, to finally rest after the long years in the fading world.

But what of the ones that were taken by Melkor and changed? It is these poor souls that I was hoping to recondition. Or is it that they had, willingly, started down Melkor's road, and by the time that they figured out that it wasn't a good thing, found that they were caught? How long, starting from a few of Feanor's sons, would it take to get something like an orc? And just how far from the original captive does one have to be to be no longer welcomed on those Western Shores?

This is assuming that Melkor made orcs from elves, as it seems later that he was only interested in making his elvish captive slaves.

I mean - of course not if they chose it themselves, like Frodo or others. If an Orc - in Middle-Earth - changed his mind, became "good" and everything, then as a sort of "reward" he could be allowed to go to Eressëa. Wonderful thing. But you made it sound to me like a bunch of Elves arriving with large ships and "Come on, all Orcs, pick the green armbands, yes, line up here, please, and to the ship. Yes, sir, over there. Large Orcs to the large ships, small Orcs to the smaller ships. No, sir, this ship is full. Eighty passengers maximum. Proceed to the next one, please..."

I wouldn't sort by size, as with Osse running about, I'd hate to lose a whole subspecies of orc, and end up, in the end, having only revived the pygmy orcs for all my troubles.

But if the orcs were given a chance between going on the ship for rehabilitation or death (either by the hands of the Elves or the orcs' masters), what then would they choose? Maybe I watched too many TV dramas where a group rescues a person from a cult by whatever means possible for the person's own good, assuming that the person no longer possesses the means by which to make a real choice.

And your last bit made sense - it must have been early for me.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Or is it that they had, willingly, started down Melkor's road, and by the time that they figured out that it wasn't a good thing, found that they were caught? How long, starting from a few of Feanor's sons, would it take to get something like an orc? And just how far from the original captive does one have to be to be no longer welcomed on those Western Shores?

Concerning the bolded part, Tolkien stated that no elf ever served Melkor willingly:

Originally Posted by Note 9, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI

The implication that as opposed to Celbin the Moerbin were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this applied also to Celbin.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Concerning the bolded part, Tolkien stated that no elf ever served Melkor willingly:

Maybe I'm mixing up my Sil and HoME, but just how did Gondolin fall? And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe I'm mixing up my Sil and HoME, but just how did Gondolin fall? And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

Well, his treachery falls under the conditions of the Quendi and Eldar (fear of torment):

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

... it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin was taken prisoner by Orcs, and brought to Angband, Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit, and he purchased his life and freedom by revealing to Morgoth the very place of Gondolin and the ways whereby it might be found and assailed.

And the sons of Feanor, though foes of Morgoth, weren't exemplars of good conduct.

I agree, they weren't. However, I would opine that their oath and the curse is what led them astray, not a desire to serve Melkor. Then again, you might be right if we give "going down Melkor's road" a large enough meaning - i.e. turning towards evil, for one reason or another. But on the strictest of senses, I would say it was not the case.