Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

[Quempel]

So Gimli is to be judged by real human standards, yet Shadowfax is to not be judged by real horse standards? Aulë created the dwarves. If Shadowfax is a creation of a Vala he is allowed special powers. But 'mere' dwarves, also a creation of a Vala, are not allowed any special powers. Which is it? Vala created beings have some special ablities or they don't. This is this.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel - you are confusing apples with cinderblocks. The Mearas were creatures of the Valar in Valinor and then exported to Middle- earth by Orome with their special genetics, abilities and talents. Dwarves are a creature of Middle-earth. They were not given the special abilities from Valinor as the mearas were.

They are two extremely different races and breeds of creatures. It is not logical or intellectually consistent to infer that the rules which apply to one apply to the other simply because they both occupy Middle-earth in the later part of the Third Age.

[Quempel]

The dwarves were created by a Vala, in middle earth before Valinor was created. It's quite intresting the logic twist you seem to be using. If the story doesn't fit in your world you twist it around so it does.

Unlike Elves and Humans or, in Middle Earth, Men, the Dwarves are not counted among the Children of Ilúvatar. They were created by Aulë the Valar.


And wasn't Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse, and the original lord of all horses-the first mearas? but Shadowfax was not an actual meara that was from Valinor, but a meara from middle earth descended from the meara's of Valinor? Sure he was the horse lord of the third age, but he was not Felarof.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... could you please cite where it says that either
a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You are confusing two very different things here or are perhaps really stretching a bad argument for what purpose I do not know.

[Quempel]

No I am simply calling your bluff. You say that Shadowfax was able to run and endure more because he was a Meara from Valinor, but he is not from Valinor, he is a meara from ME.

Yet with the same brush you say that Gimli, who is neither Elf nor Man and whose race was created by a Vala is under the same standards as Man.

So either those created by the Valar have different more extraordinary powers and don't fall under the same rules as Elf and Men, or they don't have extraordinary powers.

And I would like you to point out where it says dwarves can't run 45 miles per day. You keep saying they can't, yet you say Shadowfax is able to out run mortal horses because of his special abilities that he recieved from the Valar.

Either mythical creatures have special ablities or they don't. One can not pick an choose which mythical creature has certain abilities to fit into one's closed view of things.

Dwarves were not human. They did not have the same qualities as human's. They were in fact older than Elves, but Eru made Aule put them to sleep so the Eldar could be the first born. Dwarves lived longer than human, even the Dunedain. But according to you since they were short and stocky they must fall under the lowest possible human standards. They are not human.

I still find it funny that you can be fine with a horse, a perfect specimen of a horse with strong legs and a flowing mane, to be able to have abilities above and beyond regular horses. But a short stocky dwarf can't do anything exceptional.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel --- you sound like you have a problem more with me than with the point being discussed. I thought I was clear from the start. Please review the above posts and you will find out that it was not myself who brought up the subject of Gimli and Shadowfax. It was Galendor who asked me about it bringing up Shadowfax. I gave Galendor the answer and apparently it sufficed. But then you got involved refusing to accept it despite it being rather clear.

I asked you to clearly support your Gimli theory with evidence but your reply was firm and short. NO. That says pretty much all you need to say. But to be polite here it is again -and for the last time.

The mearas and the dwarves are two completly different creatures with completely different origins, characteristics, qualities and abilities. The mearas were created in Valinor by the Vala and exported to Middle-earth by Orome. They are not like other Middle-earth horses because their origins are in Valinor.

The dwarves were created for Middle-earth and are not of Valinor. There is no evidence they had the kind of abilities that you attribute to them. None. I asked you to show me evidence that

a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You refused to do so and simply said NO. End of discussion. All the theory in the world and all the attacking of me does not provide the evidence you were asked for and refused to provide to support your point. You have none.

[Quempel]

My point is that there are two sets of creatures/beings. Both created by the Valar, both with special abilities. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that dwarves have any ablities at all and assign to them human standards, when they are not human. Elves having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. Horses having special abilities is ok, dwarves no. Dunedain having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. All of this even though Tolkien said Dwarves are strong and have endurance (an endurance you equate with mine working, which is your assumption only) Why I do not know. I am supposing you have never seen a football lineman run 10 miles a day with full equipment on.


As for Gandalf vs. Witchking, the Wiki was a mere mortal stuck in a time-warp demon state. Gandalf was not. I think the changing/adding of that scene in the movie was a poor judgement on PJ's part.