Tolkien the freemason/ Priory of Sionist/Gnostic? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 12-13-2007, 05:05 PM

Not knowing too much about the subject - its too long since I ventured into Holy Blood, Holy Grail territory, & while I've read some of the Gnostic Gospels I can't claim to be an expert on them - I have to say I was reminded of that recent graphic novel, 'Heaven's War' which depicted Tolkien, Lewis & Williams battling Aleister Crowley at the Priory of Sion to prevent the end of the world.

Mad as a bucket of frogs....

McCaber · 12-13-2007, 06:00 PM

No, Tolkien was a strong Catholic. It was a long talk with him that brought C.S. Lewis to be a Christian.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-13-2007, 06:29 PM

Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication. Tolkien the hyperorthodox Newmanite would never have considered it.

Now, Charles Williams.....

Aiwendil · 12-13-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication.

Tell that to Mozart.

Seriously, though, there's no evidence at all that Tolkien was associated with Freemasonry or interested in Gnosticism.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-13-2007, 08:06 PM

It was precisely because of the popularity and influence of Catholic Lodges in the 18th Century (and their links to the Enlightenment and revolution) that Church and State banned them. Reactionary governments- especially Austria's- outlawed Masonry in the wake of the French Revolution. Although encyclicals against the Masons go back as far as 1738, it was in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that the explicit penalty came into force.

Incidentally, I was mistaken. Pope Benedict has made clear that despite the 1983 liberalisation on Catholic membership in charitable societies (Elks, Kiwanis, Lions etc), the ban was *not* lifted with regard to Freemasons.

Aiwendil · 12-13-2007, 09:23 PM

Yes - I wasn't actually arguing, just pointing out that the strong antagonism between Freemasonry and Catholicism is a relatively recent (i.e. 20th century) phenomenon.

Bêthberry · 12-13-2007, 09:48 PM

Given that Freemasonry is a private organisation devoted to secrecy, arcane rituals, and hierarchical progression through steps or ranks, that does not sound like something I think Tolkien would be deeply interested in.

Secrecy, especially a sort of conspiratorial secrecy (there's lots of freemasonry themes in conspiracy fiction, going back to the 18C) is something far from the values which Tolkien espouses positively in his tales. I can't see this being attractive to him.

Serious rituals of profound meaning Tolkien participated in throughout his life, more so in his later years. I can't see him needing the sanctification of the little apron with bells.

His professional life was rife with petty progress through the ranks of the academic hierarchy. Why would he need to engage in something similar in his private life or leisure?

Male bonding and comaraderie Tolkien found through the Inklings. Why would he need another boys' club?

I can't recall either that he was much interested in the new findings of Egyptology.

Of course, I could be wrong about him on all counts. He did actively pursue the profit of American money and there's lots of freemason symbols on it. (Most of the signees of the Declaration of Independence were freemasons, iirc.)

12-13-2007, 05:05 PM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Not knowing too much about the subject - its too long since I ventured into Holy Blood, Holy Grail territory, & while I've read some of the Gnostic Gospels I can't claim to be an expert on them - I have to say I was reminded of that recent graphic novel, 'Heaven's War' which depicted Tolkien, Lewis & Williams battling Aleister Crowley at the Priory of Sion to prevent the end of the world. Mad as a bucket of frogs.... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

12-13-2007, 06:00 PM	#2
McCaber Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Skyrim, again. Posts: 820	No, Tolkien was a strong Catholic. It was a long talk with him that brought C.S. Lewis to be a Christian. __________________ Werewolves vs. Fishmen. The battle of the century.

12-13-2007, 06:29 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Pre-Vatican II, for a Catholic to join the Masons was to invite excommunication. Tolkien the hyperorthodox Newmanite would never have considered it. Now, Charles Williams..... __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-13-2007, 08:06 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	It was precisely because of the popularity and influence of Catholic Lodges in the 18th Century (and their links to the Enlightenment and revolution) that Church and State banned them. Reactionary governments- especially Austria's- outlawed Masonry in the wake of the French Revolution. Although encyclicals against the Masons go back as far as 1738, it was in the 1917 Code of Canon Law that the explicit penalty came into force. Incidentally, I was mistaken. Pope Benedict has made clear that despite the 1983 liberalisation on Catholic membership in charitable societies (Elks, Kiwanis, Lions etc), the ban was not lifted with regard to Freemasons. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-13-2007, 09:48 PM	#7
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Given that Freemasonry is a private organisation devoted to secrecy, arcane rituals, and hierarchical progression through steps or ranks, that does not sound like something I think Tolkien would be deeply interested in. Secrecy, especially a sort of conspiratorial secrecy (there's lots of freemasonry themes in conspiracy fiction, going back to the 18C) is something far from the values which Tolkien espouses positively in his tales. I can't see this being attractive to him. Serious rituals of profound meaning Tolkien participated in throughout his life, more so in his later years. I can't see him needing the sanctification of the little apron with bells. His professional life was rife with petty progress through the ranks of the academic hierarchy. Why would he need to engage in something similar in his private life or leisure? Male bonding and comaraderie Tolkien found through the Inklings. Why would he need another boys' club? I can't recall either that he was much interested in the new findings of Egyptology. Of course, I could be wrong about him on all counts. He did actively pursue the profit of American money and there's lots of freemason symbols on it. (Most of the signees of the Declaration of Independence were freemasons, iirc.) __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

12-13-2007, 09:23 PM	#6
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Yes - I wasn't actually arguing, just pointing out that the strong antagonism between Freemasonry and Catholicism is a relatively recent (i.e. 20th century) phenomenon.