Film Rights to First & Second Age

[Sauron the White]

WCH - when two parties both believe that they have some claim to the same property, they can do several things including
a- continue to insist they are right and ignore the other party hoping they are of like mind
b- attack the other party and fight it out any way you have to
c- sit down like intelligent and reasonable people and work it out

Given that these movies are announced and soon to be reality, I strongly favor option c. The announcement of these two films with intended use of material above and beyond the storyline of HOBBIT or LOTR makes this a very real matter.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

What is to be worked out? This dispute is all going on in your head. Do you have any evidence at all that either side is arguing over this?

Yesterday, you could have been correct. But today things have changed making this matter one of reality.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

WCH - when two parties both believe that they have some claim to the same property,

THIS ARGUMENT IS NOT HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF YOUR FEVERED IMAGINATION.

YOU URGENTLY REQUIRE A NICE CUP OF TEA & A SIT DOWN.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Great. I believe I have an ownership claim to the White House. Therefore I can

a- continue to insist I am right and ignore the US Government hoping they are of like mind
b- attack the Government and fight it out any way I have to
c- sit down like intelligent and reasonable people and work it out

Please!


Why on earth should the Estate negotiate a compromise over rights which are indisputably theirs? Zaentz/New Line have no claim outside the covers of The Lord of the Rings. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

[Sauron the White]

White House??? NO - this is this. This is not something else.

I truly hope and pray that the next few years of news regarding these movies falls on the deaf ears of both davem and WHC. I would hate to read here how rumored inclusion of certain events in those movies are risking lawsuit because the film companies "does not own those rights" or they are "going beyond what they own". And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty and went beyond their scope.

Fat chance.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only 'rumor' currently in play is that PJ will make one movie covering The Hobbit, and another movie covering the next sixty years until Bilbo's farewell party.

The only material concerning this period is found in the Appendices,* indeed virtually all of it in Appendix B. If PJ wants to construct a bogus screenplay about Young Aragorn, so be it.

*There is the brief conversation between Gandalf and Saruman in UT. And, no, PJ can't use it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty

Incidentally, that's a scurrilous accusation and probably merits an apology.

[Sauron the White]

Nothing scurrilous about it. Just merely connecting some very obvious dots. Why is it that those closest to the Tolkien academic community are the most critical of the movies compared to the general public? And why is it that many of these peope have contacts with those who write the journal articles and espouse the most anti-film opinions? And at the same time what is the "official" position of the Estate on the movies? No position at all thank you. Now isn't that convenient.

Case in point

"I find both of the Jackson films to be travesties as adaptations... faithful only on a basic level of plot... Cut and compress as necessary, yes, but don't change or add new material without very good reason... In the moments in which the films succeed, they do so by staying close to what Tolkien so carefully wrote; where they fail, it tends to be where they diverge from him, most seriously in the area of characterization. Most of the characters in the films are mere shadows of those in the book, weak and diminished (notably Frodo) or insulting caricatures (Pippin, Merry, and Gimli)... [T]he filmmakers sacrifice the richness of Tolkien's story and characters, not to mention common sense, for violence, cheap humor, and cheaper thrills... [S]o many of its reviewers have praised it as faithful to the book, or even superior to it, all of which adds insult to injury and is demonstrably wrong..."

I wonder who said that? And do they have any financial interest in remaining loyal and friendly with the Tolkien Estate. That paragraph is nearly a template for post after post on this very site spewing anti film opinion.

Scurrilous? More like factual.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I wonder who said that? And do they have any financial interest in remaining loyal and friendly with the Tolkien Estate. That paragraph is nearly a template for post after post on this very site spewing anti film opinion.

Perhaps because true students of Tolkien's writings might reach similar conclusions about the movies. Those who have spent the most time analysing Tolkien's subtleties might, after all, be inclined to a Purist persuasion, and more sensitive than most to PJ's bulldozing of same. You see, unlike your precious movie critics, Tolkien scholars actually know something about Tolkien, and are not, unlike film critics, ignorant of the original edifice PJ vandalized.

Yes, your charge is scurrilous. You're either accusing Christopher Tolkien of orchestrating a whispering campaign against the movies (when in fact he simply ducked his head and waited for them to go away); or you're suggesting that there is some sinister cabal who think their bread is buttered by sucking up to some anti-Jackson position. And what financial motive could there be anyway? If your quote is, as I think it is, from Carl Hostetter, he doesn't make a penny from his linguistic work.

And how do you explain this cabal's permitting Alan Lee to be given a book to illustrate (at CRT's personal request) after he worked on the movies?

Speaking for myself, I railed against the movies, along lines similar to what you quote, long before I ever learned CRT had any opinion at all.

Keep going along these lines and pretty soon you'll have brought in the Illuminati and the JFK assassination.

[Sauron the White]

nope, its not from Hostetter. Think much higher upon the food chain.

Keep going along these lines and pretty soon you'll have brought in the Illuminati and the JFK assassination.

You invent this cabal concept and then accuse me of being wacky believing in it? And then you bring up this. Where do you get all that straw to build so many men?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty and went beyond their scope.

Fat chance.

Exactly - because New Line & Jackson know what their limitations are regarding what material they can & cannot use. If they choose to make a movie within those restrictions & mess up, it will be their fault. NL & Jackson are not victims here. If they want to avoid the kind of criticisms you're talking about they can adapt other some writer's work - or come up with something original.


Plus, I do have to point out (again) that Jackson et al do not actually care what Tolkien wrote, & are prepared to alter & invent whatever nonsense they like to replace Tolkien's carefully & lovingly created work. If they had access to all of Tolkien's M-e writings it would not change anything - they will do what they want. And I think you'd find a much more antagonistic response from 'purists' if they did have access to all Tolkien's material & did what they did with LotR all over it....