Anti-Dwarves

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I don't get this stuff with the opposite of the Dwarf race is the Dwarf race. You can use that type of logic for anything.

Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?

Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Were there any? It seems Eru had a plan of sorts - he made his Ainur, they created a vision of the world, Eru brought it to life. That whole shebang included Morgoth, Morgoth's visions, his creations etc. It seems reasonable to think Eru may have caused things to be 'paired', maybe as a response to what Morgoth sang of, maybe it was intended that way all along...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Interesting thought - something created by one's creations that is 'outside the plan.' Really puts Dwarves in a special category.

Regardless, wouldn't Melkor be hard at work making/twisting something to counter this possible threat? Or are his creations right in front of us - hobbits! They have some dwarven qualities, but for some reason Melkor couldn't make them into the fighting machines that he may have intended. Hmmm...

I always knew Hobbits had a sinister side....it's the hairy feet and lack of shoes which gives them away....never trust a hippy

But seriously, Melkor had a go at making his own creations, but that was one of Eru's 'laws of the universe', that only Eru could create new sentient beings - which is why there was the brou-ha-ha about him giving Aule's Dwarves life. Melkor could only corrupt what was already there.

Hmmm, maybe this us why Eru gave the Dwarves life? Because otherwise Melkor may have got his hands on them and turned them into some non-sentient, humanoid, ruthless zombie army?

[Imperica]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

...but Dwarves are outside of this.

They were made outside and away from the Music. They only got life because Eru felt sorry for Aule's creations. So it would make perfect sense if Dwarves didn't have any natural enemy or opposite.

But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...

[zxcvbn]

I can't understand why so many people are saying "I can't accept Dwarves as evil counterpart to Dwarves!" And why not? We have good Men and corrupted Men. Similarly there can be Dwarves and corrupted Dwarves(Tolkien said that the Dwarves of the East were 'corrupted' in similar manner to the Easterlings).

And as the poster above said, Dwarves certainly ARE part of the Music of the Ainur. It is natural that all Vala creations should have their source in Eru. Men are the only race that have some freedom from the Music.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Imperica

But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...

True! Logically speaking, if Eru is omnipotent and he causes Melkor to be what he is, then he must also cause Aule to be the sort of Valar who would create Dwarves. I don't know if he actually creates him to make them in that it is fated, or if he just creates him with the possibility of or capacity for making them, but it must be at least the latter if he is omnipotent. Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Farael

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

No, no way - the Children, Men and Elves alike, were in the Music, but:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning

So they were there, only not in the beginning. Where I believe (or would conclude, by logic) that the Dwarves were not in the Music, because Aulë got the idea of creating them only when he saw that there are still no Children coming and the world is quite empty (or so he felt). So, in the Music, Aulë was probably singing about stone and gems and metals and whatever, but not about Dwarves.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by alatar

Then what are the anti-Dwarves, or did Tolkien (via Melkor etc?) not create them?

I've given this some thought and I've given up the idea of the Easterlings being Anti-Dwarf's, if anything they're Anti-Gondorian.

I'm still not going for that Anti- Dwarf is the Anti- Dwarf, because, like I said before, you can use that kind of logic with any scenerio. Probably Goblins with be the next likely source for me.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I'm still not going for that Anti- Dwarf is the Anti- Dwarf, because, like I said before, you can use that kind of logic with any scenerio. Probably Goblins with be the next likely source for me.

The more I've thought while reading the Sil, the more I've decided that Tolkien was never explicit with what he had Melkor do with the dwarves. Guessing then we can conclude that he mixed them in with his orc race, or used them to make a specific subspecies of orc/goblin, as seen in the Hobbit.

[Gwathagor]

I'm coming into this rather late, and I don't really have anything to contribute, but I would like to say that I do like the idea of dwarves being their own worst enemies. It makes a great deal of sense, on many levels.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm coming into this rather late, and I don't really have anything to contribute, but I would like to say that I do like the idea of dwarves being their own worst enemies. It makes a great deal of sense, on many levels.

Please explain, because for some reason I don't see the sense in it.

[Gwathagor]

As a race, the Dwarves are the odd man out, since they were not in Illuvatar's originally expressed plan for the world. As the "Other" race, they are rather separate from the original Children of Illuvatar; the system of parallels that can be applied to Elves and Men doesn't fit the Dwarves because they stand apart from the other races in terms of their origin.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I'm still not going for that Anti- Dwarf is the Anti- Dwarf, because, like I said before, you can use that kind of logic with any scenerio. Probably Goblins with be the next likely source for me.

I get the feeling that you just have trouble accepting that the noble, tough race of Dwarves could turn to evil. No, you can't use that logic with any scenerio. There are no good counterpart to the Orcs(anti-Orcs) and there is no evil counterpart to the Elves(very very few Elves ever served the enemy). And there are no 'anti-Hobbits' either(very few bad Hobbits). The only places you can use this logic are for Men and Dwarves, because in both cases the Enemy managed to corrupt a good many of them(Haradrim, Easterlings and Dwarves of Eastern Houses).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

I get the feeling that you just have trouble accepting that the noble, tough race of Dwarves could turn to evil. No, you can't use that logic with any scenerio. There are no good counterpart to the Orcs(anti-Orcs) and there is no evil counterpart to the Elves(very very few Elves ever served the enemy). And there are no 'anti-Hobbits' either(very few bad Hobbits). The only places you can use this logic are for Men and Dwarves, because in both cases the Enemy managed to corrupt a good many of them(Haradrim, Easterlings and Dwarves of Eastern Houses).

Maybe I am a little ignorant of the truth, but I don't think of number of "Anti-Dwarves" is any larger than the number of elves that are evil.

[Gwathagor]

I'm not sure that the concept of "anti-dwarf" necessarily entails dwarves fighting for Sauron or Morgoth. An anti-dwarf, in the way we have used the term here, I think more concerns the dwarvish tendency to be self-serving and greedy that dominates the wicked dwarves, and is the weakness of good ones. Dwarves are not necessarily worse than any other race as a whole; but if one was going to identify the worst enemy of a good dwarf, it would be a bad dwarf, whereas the worst enemy of an elf is an orc.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm not sure that the concept of "anti-dwarf" necessarily entails dwarves fighting for Sauron or Morgoth. An anti-dwarf, in the way we have used the term here, I think more concerns the dwarvish tendency to be self-serving and greedy that dominates the wicked dwarves, and is the weakness of good ones. Dwarves are not necessarily worse than any other race as a whole; but if one was going to identify the worst enemy of a good dwarf, it would be a bad dwarf, whereas the worst enemy of an elf is an orc.

Ok, I think I can settle for that answer. Thanks Gwathagor!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Yes, Dwarves are strange folk indeed! What will we ever do with them?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Ok, I think I can settle for that answer. Thanks Gwathagor!

But of course!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Dwarves are not necessarily worse than any other race as a whole; but if one was going to identify the worst enemy of a good dwarf, it would be a bad dwarf, whereas the worst enemy of an elf is an orc.

Not so much 'worst enemy,' as for dwarves it may be dragons (for elves it may be balrogs, as stated by - I think - Legolas in FotR), but what would have Melkor raised up as a 'counter?'