Anti-Dwarves

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Imperica

But are they really? I disagree that they are outside/away from the Music. Eru sang in the Music before the Ainu did and it's hard for me to think that he did not perceive Aule's creations would come or even sing about it himself. I don't have my Silm handy but when Melkor causes discord in the Music, Illuvatar says to him something to the effect of "Whatever you do stims from me" meaning all of Melkor's actions were "Meant to be" and it would be the same for Aule and the rest of the Valar...

My head is jumbled but I hope that makes some sense...

True! Logically speaking, if Eru is omnipotent and he causes Melkor to be what he is, then he must also cause Aule to be the sort of Valar who would create Dwarves. I don't know if he actually creates him to make them in that it is fated, or if he just creates him with the possibility of or capacity for making them, but it must be at least the latter if he is omnipotent. Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Even so, they can still be seen as 'outside the Music' in a way as they are not directly created by Eru but via a third party, whereas Eru creates the Elves and Men himself after hearing the Music.

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Farael

Wouldn't that make men and elves outside the music, whereas dwarves who were created by a Valar (who were the ones making the music) part of the music?

No, no way - the Children, Men and Elves alike, were in the Music, but:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning

So they were there, only not in the beginning. Where I believe (or would conclude, by logic) that the Dwarves were not in the Music, because Aulë got the idea of creating them only when he saw that there are still no Children coming and the world is quite empty (or so he felt). So, in the Music, Aulë was probably singing about stone and gems and metals and whatever, but not about Dwarves.