Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

[Estelyn Telcontar]

For those who are not aware of it, Alatar is one of the moderators. He has both the right and the authority to step in if discussions become rancorous. After all, I can't be around 24/7, and as I'm the only active mod here at the moment, I very much appreciate the help given by other members of the moderating team.

I am tired of the aggressive tone several members have been taking in defending their views and the bad manners they have shown in attacking each other. I am also tired of being tactful and discreet, of writing PMs that seem to get ignored, since those involved don't change the way they post. From now on, anyone who offends in public will be named in public.

I will be back to this thread later when I have had time to check it out in detail.

People, our rules and the way we expect you to post here are very clear - if you can't adhere to them and aren't willing to adjust to the standard of politeness that we have, please leave and find another forum on which you can post anyway you like. In colloquial terms, shape up or ship out - or you will be banned, for short or long.

[Meriadoc1961]

I agree that whether or not Aragorn was present in the throne room of Gondo was irrelevant. Gimli was being disrespectful by sitting in the Steward's chair. Aragorn suffered his banner to be flown during the height of the Battle of the Pelennor when it appeared the Men of the West would fall, and did so to offer encouragemnt and to remind the people what they were fighting for, but he immediately had it furled following the victory before the gates. He would not even enter the city except in disguise as a Ranger from the North, and he only did so then because he was needed to heal the maimed, the sick and the wounded for "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful heir be known."

Aragorn, Lord of Gondor in exile, would not deign to sleep within the city's walls, the city of which he was King, while the War of the Ring was still being fought and waged, and yet we are supposed to believe that it was perfectly acceptable for Gimli to sit in the seat of the Steward of Gondor, the seat of one who had just died, while his heir's life was still hanging in the balance? I do not believe so. It was totally disrespectful. It is just another mark of shame upon our own society that has become so decadent and disrespectful that the coarsest of language and conduct is viewed as acceptable, and decorum and good manners are scoffed at.

Remember, too, that Frodo himself felt uncouth because he and those from the Shire did not observe the Standing Silence before dining. Frodo was embarrassed. And yet these men of Faramir's company did this even while foraying in the wilderness of Ithilien away from the city. If that was expected of them under those harsh conditions, do any of us honestly believe that the men of Gondor, the Guards of the Citadel of Minas Tirith, would have done or said nothing while a dwarf just kicked back and smoked while seated in the very chair of their just deceased fallen leader?

When President Kennedy was assassinated in 1963 even the just sworn in President Johnson waited a few days before anyone was allowed to touch and remove the rocking chair of the nation's fallen leader, JFK, from the Oval Office. If we in the United States could show such honor to the dead, I see not why a nation that had existed for millenia, with its ancient, high origins and purpose, would do any less.

What Jackson did with Gimli is completely crass and tasteless.

Merry

[Bêthberry]

Well, I've been biding my time waiting for an opportune moment to return to the topic at hand and I do believe that our Moddess has provided that.

I don't have time to review the scene MatthewM mentions where Gimli sits on the Throne of Gondor. Perhaps those who are more versed with the film can do that and comment on the tone, atmosphere, seeming purpose of that action in the movie. I will simply comment on the general possibilities of meaning.

We all know that directors and producers are free as interpretors and sub-creators to create the movie they envision. The problem with PJ's vision is that he and his team of writers have claimed on more than one occasion that they thought they were being faithful to Tolkien's vision. This opens up the can of worms which we dead just love to see wiggle, although we do prefer to see them wriggle through our posts rather than us.

LotR makes very clear that Gondor is a city marked by the rituals and splendor of an interregnum. The chapter "Minas Tirith" in RotK clearly shows Denethor sitting on his simple stone chair below the opulent unused Throne. Appendix A also states that the Ruling Stewards never sat on the throne itself. This is part of Tolkien's appreciation of how monarchies develope symbols of power and authority. There's no happenstance between Arthur's sword in the stone and Aragorn's blade that was unbroken, just as there was nothing meaningless in Elizabeth I's use of symbols in the various famous portraits of her. The symbols represent the Office and not just the person. Parliaments have maces that are symbolic. "The Once and Future King" still has resonance in England--the current Prince of Wales includes the name "Arthur" in his string of names. Perhaps countries which do not have a history and tradition of monarchy produce people who are less familiar with this kind of symbolic meaning. Or perhaps modern culture just deems them effluent of the past and not important.

The fact remains that the Vacant Throne held a meaning in Gondor and in the Legendarium, a meaning which is not established in the movies. So, that difference itself leads to questions, which MatthewM has rightly raised here, although we need to be careful if the Throne in the movies has the same meaning as it has in the books.

Was PJ simply not interested in this aspect of Tolkien's Legendarium, the role and attitude towards monarchy--was he more interested in the blockbuster action thriller aspects? Did he understand why the Throne was unoccupied in LotR? Or was he aware of it but decided in a modern age of democracy to downplay the significance of monarchy? Did he think that having Gimli sit on the Throne was a way to demonstrate to a modern audience that change was here at hand? Was he trying to imply some sort of Constitutional Monarchy?

I don't think we can simply transfer Tolkien's meaning of the symbol, the Vacant Throne, to the movies (except to note that here is one clear example where PJ's vision of LotR does not coincide with the text). But we can ask what PJ might have meant by having the dwarf sit on the Throne. Really, I would love to have someone ask PJ and his writers about this.

And it doesn't matter that the movies came out years ago and no one asked this earlier. People make all kinds of new observations about books that were published centuries ago. This is part of the fun of reading/viewing/internet discussion boards. Human beings create an infinite variety of ways to count dancing angels.

EDIT: Sorry, cross posted with Merry.

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961, post # 48

If that was expected of them under those harsh conditions, do any of us honestly believe that the men of Gondor, the Guards of the Citadel of Minas Tirith, would have done or said nothing while a dwarf just kicked back and smoked while seated in the very chair of their just deceased fallen leader?

Umm, the Throne was not the chair of their 'just deceased fallen leader' Denethor; it was the ancient Seat of the Kings, untouched by the ruling Stewards, who sat in a plain stone chair at the foot of the empty Throne. But your comment does show that the actions PJ puts Gimli through need to be understood in movie terms because PJ does not deal with the meaning Tolkien gives to the Vacant Throne.

[Meriadoc1961]

I would like to add another observation, especially to those who turn to Aragorn being in the room as somehow making it okay for Gimli to sit in the Steward's chair.

When Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli first came to Edoras they were forbidden from bringing any weapons into the presence of the King. Aragorn was loth to remove his sword, Anduril, because of its significance, and he told Hama that death would be the penalty for anyone who dared touch his sword. Aragorn would have been the first to keep Gimli out of that empty chair. But then again, had Jackson not tampered with the characters in the first place, then this would be a moot point: Gimli himself would NEVER have approached that chair, kicked back and lit up a pipe, if his character had not been tampered with!

Merry

[alatar]

Sorry to all for my less than informative and evidential posts last eve.

Anyway, now I do have some 'evidence' as to why I think that Gimli shouldn't have stood on the Tomb of Balin. I'll disregard the whole 'respect' thing as I don't know that much about movie Dwarven culture. Sure, Gimli spends a lot of time kneeling before the tomb, but then maybe all bets are off once the Dwarf's blood (if they have blood, which is another assumption) gets hot.

I'll be referring to the attached images. In 'Gimli,' we see the Dwarf atop the tomb. Aragorn and Legolas - archers - are in front, and Boromir stands out there as well with sword and shield. Gandalf and the hobbits stand off to the other side. Gimli2 shows this from the front - what the orcs will see when they enter the Chamber of Mazarbul. Gimli3 shows Gimli after the affray has gone on for a few minutes. The Dwarf is still atop the tomb. Aragorn has switched from bow to sword, and at this time everyone is engaged. Gimli has taken one or possibly two hacks at orcs, and now is dodging the troll's attack.

Okay, so for me, I would say that this 'come and get some' Dwarf would have been better positioned for battle directly in front of the tomb. You'll notice if you watch the scene that his 'count,' which becomes more important later, is slightly - if at all - above the individual hobbits. He could have been right behind Aragorn and Legolas, so that when they drop their bows he could add to the ground attack. But...

And now for the Seat of Denethor. In Gimli4, we can see the Dwarf happily planted on the black throne. Please look closely at his legs and his head in relationship to the throne. In Gimli5, we see that the Dwarf is so comfortable that he's lit up his pipe - hammer and tongs!

Now I will conjecture that all of this fuss about disrespect for the Seat of Denethor is for not. Why? Again, look at Gimli4. If that's a human-sized throne then I'll be a winged polar Balrog. So, my conclusion? The Army of the Dead stole the real throne and replaced it with the one we see. You also will note that the King's throne also is missing.

No wonder they were in a hurry to leave on the Pellenor Fields - had to get out of town before Aragorn discovered their prank. Aragorn cares not as he sees the obvious fakery. How else can you explain it?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

And now for the Seat of Denethor. In Gimli4, we can see the Dwarf happily planted on the black throne. Please look closely at his legs and his head in relationship to the throne. In Gimli5, we see that the Dwarf is so comfortable that he's lit up his pipe - hammer and tongs!

Now I will conjecture that all of this fuss about disrespect for the Seat of Denethor is for not. Why? Again, look at Gimli4. If that's a human-sized throne then I'll be a winged polar Balrog. So, my conclusion? The Army of the Dead stole the real throne and replaced it with the one we see. You also will note that the King's throne also is missing.

No wonder they were in a hurry to leave on the Pellenor Fields - had to get out of town before Aragorn discovered their prank. Aragorn cares not as he sees the obvious fakery. How else can you explain it?

Oh great Mod alatar, on whose altar... ...
You have gone back to review the flick, which I didn't have time for. Does Gimli in the movie simply sit on the Ruling Stewards' black stone chair and not on the Vacant Throne? So that PJ completely omitted Tolkien's little bit of monarchial symbolism?

Do Kiwis not have Elizabeth as their titular head of state?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh great Mod alatar, on whose altar... ...

What!?! I'm not actually a mod; I just play one on TV...

You have gone back to review the flick, which I didn't have time for.

I considered it my penance.

Does Gimli in the movie simply sit on the Ruling Stewards' black stone chair and not on the Vacant Throne?

I'm not even sure that the 'vacant throne' was even there - truly vacant. Maybe Aragorn had it out being reupholstered perhaps?

So that PJ completely omitted Tolkien's little bit of monarchial symbolism?

All of that 'monarchy' stuff is lost on this 'Merican. Could you rephrase the question in regards to celebrity status (i.e. What would Brittany do?) ?

[Boromir88]

I'm not even sure that the 'vacant throne' was even there - truly vacant

I think if you look at Gimli4. up those steps at the top of the plateau(?) sits the white vacant throne of the king.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

All of that 'monarchy' stuff is lost on this 'Merican. Could you rephrase the question in regards to celebrity status (i.e. What would Brittany do?) ?

I think she would be gazing far too much into her Palantir. (But just because her name is Brittany, don't get confused with things Britainy.)

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

Bethberry, it is not the actual Throne of the King that is under discussion. It is Gimli seen sitting in the vacant seat of the Steward.

Yes. Exactly. And the Steward's chair is not as deserving of respect as is the King's Throne.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Point exactly is if Jackson chose not to change the location of the Last Debate to the "throne room" this discussion would not be taking place,

You obviously are aware that the heir to the British throne, first in line, collects porcelain thrones as a hobby.

[Meriadoc1961]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think she would be gazing far too much into her Palantir. (But just because her name is Brittany, don't get confused with things Britainy.)



Yes. Exactly. And the Steward's chair is not as deserving of respect as is the King's Throne.

Bethberry,

Gandalf pointed out to Pippin that even the Steward of Gondor had a greater lineage than the King of Rohan, and was of higher and nobler blood. He was desended from a greater House of Men. And Aragorn, the exiled Lord of Gondor, paid respects to that subordinate king's wishes by removing Anduril from his side. Aragorn even bowed to Theoden. So the "Steward is less than the King" argument is not valid, particularly in this situation.

Denethor may have been only a Steward, but it came to him by birthright, just as a kingship does. He had all the power of the king during the king's absence, which in this case had been hundreds of years. He WAS the ruler of Gondor, and that in itself made him worthy of respect...and it was not shown to him or his office by Jackson having Gimli sit in his seat, kick back, and light up his pipe.

Merry

[Sauron the White]

Okay... lets approach this from a different tact. Forget for a minute about whose office was higher, who was in power and who was not, whose lineage was the more prestigious or lengthy, or what was the exact import of the various offices or thrones.

This was in the middle of war. The city had just been attacked by a couple of hundred thousand orcs, trolls, Nazgul and Grond thrown in for good measure. Large portions of it were destroyed and burned. Several sections of the city were probably largely uninhabitable. Lots of good people died in its defense. And then we realize that this is but a blip, a bump in the road. All means nothing if Frodo runs into serious opposition in Mordor and fails to complete his task.

With all this on the plate of Aragorn, Gandalf and group, is it logical to stand on manners and ceremony at this most crucial of times? During World War II lots of major buildings all over Europe were turned into war rooms where meetings were held and I would bet that the previous occupants would be shocked if they could see soldiers putting their feet up on that highly polished mahogany table or putting a cigar out on the family china. But it happened and it was not because anybody wanted to urinate upon or disrespect on the family or national crest or flag.

It was wartime plain and simple. That kind of urgency has a brutal and immediate way of cutting through all the social nicities of normal life and rendering them all pretty meaningless.

I am not British but I read and have seen newsreels where during the bombing of Britain during WWII, the Queen (who I guess is now the Queen Mother) would visit bombsites the next day, sometimes even the same day to meet with people and keep spirits up by purchasing some little item or food product in the nieghborhood to show the people that normal life should go on. I was not there. But I have to imagine that the conduct of those neighborhood people in meeting the Queen in a bombed out store may have been just a tad bit different than a formal presentation to the Queen at a formal event at the palace. At least that is what the old newsreels showed.

Same here with Gimli on the throne.
This so called lack of respect appears to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Meriadoc1961]

"Umm, the Throne was not the chair of their 'just deceased fallen leader' Denethor; it was the ancient Seat of the Kings, untouched by the ruling Stewards, who sat in a plain stone chair at the foot of the empty Throne. But your comment does show that the actions PJ puts Gimli through need to be understood in movie terms because PJ does not deal with the meaning Tolkien gives to the Vacant Throne."

Bethberry, it is not the actual Throne of the King that is under discussion. It is Gimli seen sitting in the vacant seat of the Steward. I hope this clarifies things a bit better.

Merry

[Boromir88]

Point exactly is if Jackson chose not to change the location of the Last Debate to the "throne room" this discussion would not be taking place, as there would be no disrespectful dwarf sitting on a vacant steward's chair . Maybe they should have communed in the hallows where Denethor burns himself alive? Hmm..