Was Sauron a Balrog?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Me too... And I thought Arien was of Aulë's folk as well. I really have no idea where I've got this impression, maybe it's just something we speculated years ago with a certain downer.

Wait a moment... are you claiming that I've said that I think Arien might be one of Aulë's folk? I might have said that about balrogs, but surely not of Arien...?

Originally Posted by Legate

But you can hardly blame me for developing a misled opinion in my 10 (if you think you are without sin, you may first cast the stone... ).

Ok, I won't start throwing stones - after all, when I was 7 or something I was convinced that Tom and Goldberry had a daughter. (I even included her in a picture of the scene at Tom Bombadil's house, and having then read the book myself, about a year later I made some censoring with an eraser... )
But watch out for flying stones in the next ww game.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Wait a moment... are you claiming that I've said that I think Arien might be one of Aulë's folk? I might have said that about balrogs, but surely not of Arien...?

I think we were talking about fire spirits in general then. Or then we just spoke about balrogs and whether they were of Aulë's folk or not, and I was too quick to jump to conclusions.

[Nerwen]

Calm down, people! It's actually quite logical to assume that

A. Fire-spirits would all work for the same Vala.

and

B. That Vala would be associated with fire in some way (Aulë the Smith, Varda the Star-Kindler).

Just seems to be wrong, that's all.

I don't think Tolkien ever said the Balrogs followed any particular Vala (apart from Melkor).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Calm down, people!

Oh no, am I again seeming aggressive and heated when I'm merely bantering?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It's actually quite logical to assume that
A. Fire-spirits would all work for the same Vala.

I can't still see how it is. If we go for other traditional four elements, earth spirits (and probably air spirits too) would not all work for the same Vala, but every one for the Vala who shares the same specific aspect of the element (like plant-inclined earth spirits would got to Yavanna and rock-inclined to Aulë), right? Therefore it would be logical to assume that fire spirits could be divided too.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh no, am I again seeming aggressive and heated when I'm merely bantering?

You? Always.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I can't still see how it is. If we go for other traditional four elements, earth spirits (and probably air spirits too) would not all work for the same Vala, but every one for the Vala who shares the same specific aspect of the element (like plant-inclined earth spirits would got to Yavanna and rock-inclined to Aulë), right? Therefore it would be logical to assume that fire spirits could be divided too.

Well yes, but that's exactly what was my point before. Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits. We know only about two of his Maiar, as far as I am aware, and these were some sort of mad craftsmen (and both turned to the Dark Side, which is another issue ). But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

I am not quite sure what Nerwen intended to say with her last post, though. I cannot follow the breaking point of it. What is right and what is wrong, Nerwen? Or is it supposed to say that all is logical, but it's wrong? That's how I understood it, but the formulation is... confusing at least.

[Nerwen]

Sorry for being confusing. It's late here.

I'm saying all is logical, but it's wrong.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Aulë did not seem to have any fire spirits.

Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.

But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same? And what does any of that have to do with Sauron, who was never a fire spirit? Is Peter Jackson's volcanic eye depiction creeping in?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But if fire-spirit is a fire-spirit... anyway, it looks that we can't tell even what Arien was... if she was Vána's, well, then what was there about the fire? The flame of youth?

I'm not sure if you're saying that we don't know if Arien was a fire-spirit or whose maia she was... At least I think it was said quite clearly that she was a fire-spirit (see the quote Nerwen provided).
But as for her connection with Vána... Did there need to be more reasons than that the flowers in Vána's gardens enjoyed being watered with the dew of Laurelin?

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe he had one or two dancing around within his forge - no need to cut trees then.

One or two Arien-like naked flames dancing there would surely have been more disturbing to Yavanna than some occasional tree-cutting.

Originally Posted by alatar

Melkor and Manwe were brothers but went separate ways. Why can't fire spirits do the same?

Were the fire-spirits alike in every way (ie. did Eru "create" them to be some special kind of spirits), or was the only thing they had in common that fire attracted them?