The curse of Morgoth in CoH. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

skip spence · 02-11-2008, 01:11 PM

I've a feeling you're arguing mostly for the sake of the argument, as you've cut out the parts I wrote that can answer your questions. I didn't suggest that the Valar lack free will, although it is a possibility, depending on how you define "free will". Besides, the Valar would remain untouched by the marring as they are all spirit and without a 'hroa' drawn from ME.

In Arda Unmarred the Children were meant to be pure and to do only what is good and natural for them, by the resoning in MR. This you may or may not call lack of free will, depending on how you definie it. If you mean the ability to make a decision, for example of whether to have fish or steak for dinner, then they certainly were meant to have a free will even in Arda Unmarred. But if you mean the ability to do right or wrong, than they weren't meant to have a free will, as they could do only what is good according to their nature.

From Raynor
"I believe we are talking again about two different things: choosing rather freely between good and evil (and Feanor did his share of bad choices) and being coerced towards evil, which is what Melkor's marring was in essence about. To return to my previous example, Ungoliant was perfectly well outside Melkor's will when she nearly finished him off when he refused to honor their understanding."

The choice between good and evil is a direct result of Melkors marring IMO. Feanor was able to choose only as a result of the marring. In Arda Unmarred Feanor would never have acted as he did, as the thought to do so never would have occured to him. As for Ungoliant, I already explained how she could disobey him in person and at the same time do his bidding, just like Feanor did. Besides, Ungoliant is an intentional enigma, much like Tom Bombadill.

But let's get back on subject: How do you think the curse of Morgoth did work?

02-11-2008, 01:11 PM	#11
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	I've a feeling you're arguing mostly for the sake of the argument, as you've cut out the parts I wrote that can answer your questions. I didn't suggest that the Valar lack free will, although it is a possibility, depending on how you define "free will". Besides, the Valar would remain untouched by the marring as they are all spirit and without a 'hroa' drawn from ME. In Arda Unmarred the Children were meant to be pure and to do only what is good and natural for them, by the resoning in MR. This you may or may not call lack of free will, depending on how you definie it. If you mean the ability to make a decision, for example of whether to have fish or steak for dinner, then they certainly were meant to have a free will even in Arda Unmarred. But if you mean the ability to do right or wrong, than they weren't meant to have a free will, as they could do only what is good according to their nature. From Raynor "I believe we are talking again about two different things: choosing rather freely between good and evil (and Feanor did his share of bad choices) and being coerced towards evil, which is what Melkor's marring was in essence about. To return to my previous example, Ungoliant was perfectly well outside Melkor's will when she nearly finished him off when he refused to honor their understanding." The choice between good and evil is a direct result of Melkors marring IMO. Feanor was able to choose only as a result of the marring. In Arda Unmarred Feanor would never have acted as he did, as the thought to do so never would have occured to him. As for Ungoliant, I already explained how she could disobey him in person and at the same time do his bidding, just like Feanor did. Besides, Ungoliant is an intentional enigma, much like Tom Bombadill. But let's get back on subject: How do you think the curse of Morgoth did work?