Dol Guldur

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It does seem to me that the above picture is a trifle flashy for a place Sauron used to hide out while he was rebuilding his strength.

Indeed, and I don't think it would have looked like that even after it was reoccupied later (and this time everyone knew Sauron's forces are there).

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alfirin - In the books Sauron had neither the "Giant warrior" nor "the Eye" forms.
At first, back in the Second Age, he had been a shape-shifter, able to assume any guise from a wolf to a snake to Elven-like fair Annatar.
Then when his material body had perished in the fall of Numenor, he lost the ability to assume a fair guise. He made himself a new body - humanoid, higher than any man "but NOT gigantic". This shape was terrible to look upon.

Then Elendil and Gil-Galad brought Sauron down and Isildur took the Ring. In a millennium or more, Sauron was able to make himself a new body yet again - seemingly the exact copy of his last one, with the missing finger. In this guise he stayed till the very end.

True. He was in some sort of humanoid form, and don't remember that being called "the Necromancer of Dol Guldur" could have implied that he also was known to have a humanoid form. Which is related to the last question:

Originally Posted by skip spence

I find it curious that Galdalf was able to enter Dol Guldur when Sauron was present.
How did he manage this? If Dol Guldur was a stronghold you imagine it being foritfied with stone walls and a big main gate, staffed with legions of evil men, orcs and wraiths. But would Galdalf be able to entre through the main gate with Sauron present? Surely not, even if he came in disguise. Perhaps he came into the underground catacombs through some back door he discovered. Or maybe Dol Guldur was more like a haunted village, much like the town of Minas Morgul.

Not sure if Minas Morgul was "haunted village" any more than Dol Guldur was. It was inhabited by Orcs (like Gorbag's troop), evil Men and who knows what else, and it was a big city, comparable to Minas Tirith. I believe some ten thousand Orcs are the minimum of inhabitants; and they were guarding the gates and everything else as well.

Though, knowing Gandalf, I would not underestimate him. If a group of Orcs or Trolls was guarding the gates, I can imagine good old Gandalf disguised as an Orc, or using his ventriloquism trick or other things to get past them (like that invisibility-thing he did when pursuing the Dwarves who were captured by the Misty Mountain Goblins). Nay, I believe getting in was not a problem, he only had to take care not to be caught - and something implies that he was spotted and alarm was raised and he had to run away shooting fire and smoke all around the place (somewhere he says "I barely got out of there alive"). It is obvious that when he found Thráin there, he revealed himself to him in his normal shape - possibly, he found a Dwarven prisoner and wanted to help him, but the old Dwarf only managed to give him the map and the key and died. But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Though, knowing Gandalf, I would not underestimate him. If a group of Orcs or Trolls was guarding the gates, I can imagine good old Gandalf disguised as an Orc, or using his ventriloquism trick or other things to get past them (like that invisibility-thing he did when pursuing the Dwarves who were captured by the Misty Mountain Goblins). Nay, I believe getting in was not a problem, he only had to take care not to be caught - and something implies that he was spotted and alarm was raised and he had to run away shooting fire and smoke all around the place (somewhere he says "I barely got out of there alive"). It is obvious that when he found Thráin there, he revealed himself to him in his normal shape - possibly, he found a Dwarven prisoner and wanted to help him, but the old Dwarf only managed to give him the map and the key and died. But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

That would make a cool movie. Hey, wait a minute...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

That would make a cool movie. Hey, wait a minute...

Exactly. I was beginning to think about a fan-fiction. Then I went and I am just watching one movie which I felt like in similar mood. Maybe I'll catch some inspiration and write something Don't you want to try a cooperative work on a script?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Don't you want to try a cooperative work on a script?

Right, and then we could sell the script to New Line Cinema and become millionaires. If they don't cheat us on the compensation that is.

I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be.

Yes, and that's what I am afraid of: I believe, among other things, that Dol Guldur there would look like the picture above.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Not that it seems to make any difference to film-makers, but Gandalf's visit to the dungeons of Dol Guldur was over and done with by the time of The Hobbit. He got the key and the map from Thrain in the dungeons, and those he turned over to Thorin early in the story. They might get around to showing the White Council attacking Dol Guldur, though. And I also shudder to think of it looking like that picture.

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

[Kuruharan]

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?

Your memory is not failing you, Amon Lanc was originally probably a place with just some elven settlement, and later the fortress (of Dol Guldur at that time already) was built there later.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?

I don't think so. There is the moment where Frodo looks from Cerin Amroth and sees only dark cloud. Haldir, or who is that there, says there is "forest of dark fir" around Guldur and that there is "black cloud above it lately", but nothing much more. And then, when Frodo looks from Amon Hen, he sees only battle of Men and wild beasts in Mirkwood, but not Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That is an interesting question about how Gandalf knew. I think Gandalf just recognized Sauron’s presence in the place, having known him before when they were singing the Music. I think he picked up the vibe, as it were.

I thought about similar things as well. But then the question arises - how close would Gandalf need to be to recognize Sauron? In Moria, when he was placing a spell upon the door on whose other side the Balrog was, he merely sensed "something he never sensed before". He also sensed the Balrog when he entered the room, but he did not realise it was the Balrog until he saw him (and Legolas said it). So, I think even though he may have had his expectations to find Sauron there, he had to come quite close to him - and still, I'm sure he'd double-check it and not rely just on some feeling - he had to be absolutely sure, not to say "maybe there's Sauron, or maybe there's a Balrog", for example. He seems pretty convinced when speaking to Elrond about it:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion

True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.

Sounds like some enspionage old Gandalf did there, and "taken shape" - may even refer to the fact that he saw him?

By the way - to avoid a double-post, Gandalf indeed entered Dol Guldur in disguise:

Originally Posted by UT, the Quest of Erebor

I remembered a dangerous journey of mine, ninety-one years before, when I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits.