Dol Guldur

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints. I suspect Gandalf would probably recognize Sauron, since it would be rather foolish for the Valar to send their servants specifically for the purpose of contesting him, and then take away the ability to identify him; Sauron, on the other hand, might have difficulty identifying Gandalf, at first because he was still concentrating on gathering his own strength again. I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did). The Balrog... well, I suppose it's been a long time since anyone has seen or felt the presence of a Balrog -- though I have long been puzzled over the fact that everyone seems to have forgotten what drove the Dwarves out of Moria. A matter for another discussion, I suppose.

[Kuruharan]

Maybe he's forgotten everything (except that name) before he came to Middle Earth.

I'm not sure "forgotten" is the word I'd use to describe it. "Dimmed" or "veiled" I think describes it more accurately.

It seems to me that it's the other way around

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This sort of throws my original thought into a bit of question because the Balrog was also a being with which Gandalf would have been familiar during the Music. It had changed to the point that Gandalf could no longer recognize it. How much more so with Sauron...?

Gandalf definitely forgot a lot when he was incarnated:

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.

I don't believe he at the moment remembered some Balrog or even Sauron who was singing with him in the Music. Also, he met them only before the descent to Arda (well, Sauron maybe even later, but still a long time ago), where they still did not have bodies and everything, so his perception of them was different.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It seems to me that it's the other way around, that Gandalf was changed by the constraints of his mission in Middle-earth. He and the other Istari were sent in real bodies rather than a self-incarnate fana, partly for the purpose of diminishing their native abilities so there would be less temptation to try to rule the Eruhini by revealing their full power. Sauron and the Balrog don't have these constraints.

Yup, I also think so. But as shown above, I think it worked even the other way around.

I tend to wonder if he ever did figure out who Gandalf was, since the Mouth of Sauron appears to consider him more of a nuisance than a threat (although Sauron might've gotten confirmation via Saruman, and simply doesn't consider Olorin a threat, anyway, and wouldn't've told an underling even if he did).

I believe Sauron knew what Gandalf is, just did not bother to tell his servants, as many of them would not understand anyway. Although...

Originally Posted by UT; Istari

and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.

So if we take this indeed literally, word-to-word, then Sauron did not know. Only Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel; and no one else.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is some merit in what you are saying, but Sauron and the Balrog had undergone *profound* changes since the time that they had sung the Music.

I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.

Exactly (to the first). Yes, something like that (to the second).

[Gordis]

and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.UT; Istari

I don't think it could be taken literally. Saruman knew who Gandalf was and would have told Sauron, if the other didn't know about the Istari already.

I think Sauron came to know about the Istari and Gandalf in particular much-much earlier - for hadn't he run away when Gandalf came to Dol Guldur the first time in 2063? Sauron had been so afraid of him that he hid for 400 years somewhere in the East.

Also consider that the Witch-King knew about Gandalf, (maybe from Sauron, maybe from personal experience during his rule of Angmar), recognized his power and feared his involvement with the Ring:

Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force. RC, p.167

As for the Mouth, he did as instructed, showing contempt to both Gandalf and Aragorn - however he was much afraid himself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think it could be taken literally. Saruman knew who Gandalf was and would have told Sauron, if the other didn't know about the Istari already.

Nay, why would he do that? Sauron might have guessed it, or forced it out of him, possibly, but Saruman had no need to tell him from his own initiative. Saruman was very clever and aware of the fact that having more knowledge than those around him is always advantageous for him.

I think Sauron came to know about the Istari and Gandalf in particular much-much earlier - for hadn't he run away when Gandalf came to Dol Guldur the first time in 2063? Sauron had been so afraid of him that he hid for 400 years somewhere in the East.

That's possible. But it's also possible that Sauron simply was not strong enough yet back then and even though not knowing who he is, he felt him powerful (something like if Elrond came there) and so he decided to escape. Gandalf had already quite some time of his actions in M-E, so Sauron might have learned about him being a powerful figure, and he did not necessarily have to know who he was.

Also consider that the Witch-King knew about Gandalf, (maybe from Sauron, maybe from personal experience during his rule of Angmar), recognized his power and feared his involvement with the Ring:

Well, this does not necessarily say he knew what Gandalf is. He might have known he is a dangerous enemy, well indeed, he was, that much was clear to Sauron, surely - like Saruman, or Elrond, or Galadriel, or whoever else. And if Gandalf indeed was in Dol Guldur and escaped from there, then Sauron knew he has a really powerful enemy in him. And yet he did not need to know his true identity.

As for the Mouth, he did as instructed, showing contempt to both Gandalf and Aragorn - however he was much afraid himself.

His fear was caused by the "kingly charisma" of Aragorn.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nay, why would he do that? Sauron might have guessed it, or forced it out of him, possibly, but Saruman had no need to tell him from his own initiative. Saruman was very clever and aware of the fact that having more knowledge than those around him is always advantageous for him.

Why would he tell Sauron? - to position himself as a powerful ally, not a lowly servant, Saruman had to impress Sauron with his power. Also, I am almost sure that the two Maiar had been quite well acquainted while they both were in the train of Aule in Valinor - like two post-docs of the same professor. It may well be that Curumo's admiration and envy for Sauron dates back to these times.

That's possible. But it's also possible that Sauron simply was not strong enough yet back then and even though not knowing who he is, he felt him powerful (something like if Elrond came there) and so he decided to escape. Gandalf had already quite some time of his actions in M-E, so Sauron might have learned about him being a powerful figure, and he did not necessarily have to know who he was.

In the case of Gandalf, Sauron may have indeed not known him as Olorin before. However, it is quite possible that he recognised him as another incarnate Maia. He wouldn't be so impressed if Elrond came there, I believe.

As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why would he tell Sauron? - to position himself as a powerful ally, not a lowly servant, Saruman had to impress Sauron with his power. Also, I am almost sure that the two Maiar had been quite well acquainted while they both were in the train of Aule in Valinor - like two post-docs of the same professor. It may well be that Curumo's admiration and envy for Sauron dates back to these times.

Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron. And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.

He wouldn't be so impressed if Elrond came there, I believe.

Oh yes, he would. He was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.

As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one.

I believe you are making it too simplificated. Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.