"People do not decide to become extraordinary....

[smeagollives]

I think Tolkien talked about the "enoblement of ignoble" one times. He said every one of us would be able to do great deeds. You just must be willing to make the right choices when confronted with it.

@Lalwendë: Well i am from Germany... and i think i am special (even extraordinary)... just as everybody else is. I think most people accomplished a thing or two in their lives which they can be proud of.

I think it is a good thing to decide to become extraordinary. You mustn't be a hero, just extraordinary your own way.

You english love understatement, don't you? I think you do not like big words.

[Mithalwen]

I am sorry that I have neglected this thread - I am afraid work and domestic duties have been taking priority.

Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day".

What I am sure Tolkien, and Sir Edmund, would have deplored is the cult of vacuous fame - people seeking fame for its own sake in a shameless fashion. Look at the people who fill "celebrity" magazines - apart from the sports people who are genuinely talented in their field it is virtually a freak show.

Sam does not set out to be famous though he is not ignorant of fame. He is an admirable character - but and ordinary hobbit. He is achievement is the result of his determination to stick with his master. It is not blind devotion - he knows the score and carries on anyway. He is " an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated". Even Frodo, who is unusual according to the norms of his kind, does not set out to be extraordinary though it is an extraordinary thing he does.

There are a few characters in Tolkien who do set out to be extra ordinary in the "Look at me" kind of way Lal was suggesting. They don't generally make good ends.

[Boromir88]

Just poking my head in Mith to point out you might be interested in reading this thread (Small hand do them because they must...)

What I particularly like is this bit from Tolkien's Letter to Milton Waldman:

A moral of the whole is the obvious one that without the high and noble, the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless.

You need Aragorn, Boromir, Glorfindel and those "noble" warriors to do the grunt work and inspirational leadership. Yet you think those guys are going to get their nice clothes dirty and take a ring into Mordor and go through extreme mental/physical pain? Most likely not...so that means it's up to the 'smaller' ones of the world.

I think this correlation also exists with the Villain and his servants. The villains that strive to be Dark Lords (Sauron, Saruman) are the guys who have control over their servants (Orcs, Grima). Without the servants the Dark Lords wouldn't be able to get much done. Yet, without the Dark Lord the servants are lost and go insane.

Like the Orcs:

The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die,...~The Field of Cormallen

There is a great visual comparison made between the Orcs reacting to Sauron's destruction as ants to the loss of their queen.

And Grima:

at that something snapped; suddenly Wormtounge rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran of down the lane. Before Frodo could recover or speak a word, three Hobbit bows twanged and Wormtounge fell dead.~Scouring of the Shire

Excellent thread, Mith.

[smeagollives]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day".

I see. I am sorry. English is not my native language.