Tuor: the Anti-Turin

[skip spence]

To compare the stories of Tuor and of Turin is an interesting idea.

All I can add right now is this:

Difference:
Tuor is given wise counsel and listens to it it humbly.

Turin is given wise counsel but stubbornly refuses to accept it.

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

[Groin Redbeard]

I've never noticed that before! Thanks for brining that up Gwathagor. Although I don't know much about Turin, or Tuor for that matter, I'm very interested in this thread.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

Whoa, you're right.

Good point about the mothers, Thinlomien.

[McCaber]

Besides that, Turin's friends keep ending up dead by his own hands while Tuor seems able to protect those he cares about.

I just realized that there are also comparisons between Beleg and Voronwë and between Finduilas and Idril. I really have to spend some time on this.

[Galadriel55]

I cannot resist.

"... I asked because I doubted what here seems believed; for little indeed do you resemble the kin of Hador, whatever your name."

"And what do you know of them?" said Turin.

"Hurin I have seen," answered Arminas, "and his fathers before him. And in the wastes of Dor-lomin I met with Tuor, son of Huor, Hurin's brother; and he is like his fathers, as you are not."

"That may be," said Turin, "though of Tuor I have heard no word ere now.But if my head be dark and not golden, of that I am not ashamed. For I am not the first of sons in the likeness of his mother; and I come through Morwen Eledhwen of the House of Beor and the kindred of Beren Camlost."

"I spoke not of the difference between the black and the gold," said Arminas. "But others of the House of Hador bear themselves otherwise, and Tuor among them. For they use courtesy, and they listen to good counsel, holding the Lords of the West in awe. But you, it seems, will take counsel with your own wisdom, or with your sword only; and you speak haughtily. And I say to you, Agarwaen Mormegil, that if you do so, other shall be your doom than one of the Houses of Hador and Beor might look for."

~COH, The Fall of Nargothrond

I think that having black hair also has some symbolical significance (being the black sheep?), although its not the most important thing.

At length [Tuor and Voronwe] came in their journeying to the Pools of Ivrin, and looked with grief on the defilement wrought there by the passage of Glaurung the Dragon; but even as they gazed upon it they saw one going northward in haste, and he was a tall Man, clad in black, and bearing a black sword. But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.

~The Sil, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

Here we have the pair going in different directions. Also symbolical.

Originally Posted by Gwath

Turin was loved by Elf princess, and consequently was hated by Gwindor

I don't think Gwindor hated. He was bitter about it, but he didn't hate Turin.

[Archaic Elf]

I would just say that Turin and Tuor are social experiments. Take two people that would be similar in most regards and see what happens when you insert poison into one and not the other. One goes crazy and dies violently while the other thrives and becomes a hero.

Turin probably could have been just as heroic and likeable as Tuor, but he was doomed from the start because of Morgoth's power. It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

Glaurong didn't help matters either....

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Archaic Elf

It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

There are other threads that talk about this, but this is what I think:

The curse turns most of Turins deeds into evil. He has free will, but no matter how good his choice may seem at the moment, it always turns back on him.

Melian tried to shield him and Morwen from the curse. Morwen didn't listen from the start, but she succeeded with Turin, until he started taking matters into his own hands. Ultimately, though, Melian's protection cost her the life of her husband and her kingdom.


That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There are other threads that talk about this, but this is what I think:

The curse turns most of Turins deeds into evil. He has free will, but no matter how good his choice may seem at the moment, it always turns back on him.

Melian tried to shield him and Morwen from the curse. Morwen didn't listen from the start, but she succeeded with Turin, until he started taking matters into his own hands. Ultimately, though, Melian's protection cost her the life of her husband and her kingdom.


That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?

I wonder if the curse actually affected Turin himself. Did it have any power over him, or just over his circumstances? Certainly he was put through terrible situations and tribulations, but how much of the curse was himself, his own acceptance and ownership of the dark name that had been placed upon him? Maybe all Morgoth had to do was create the right situation in order to unleash the darkness inside Turin.

Again, a Macbeth sort of thing.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That makes me think of what would happen with Tuor if he was Turin. Would he listen to Ulmo (not that Ulmo would choose Turin anyways)? Would he kill Voronwe? How long would Gondolin have lasted?

Doubtless Tuor would make mistakes, though I do not think they would be as grievous as Túrin's. Tuor is by nature humble and wise, and would probably heed the advice of his friends and seniors better. He would not, I think, come to such a dark end as Túrin did. I do not know if he would kill Voronwë. Even Túrin only killed Beleg by pure and complete accident; it had nothing to do with his pride or his stubbornness. Tuor could just as easily make the same mistake, if cursed by a Dark Lord.

I do not want to know what would happen to Gondolin As if its end was not bad enough already!

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And why are Turin's buddies (whose good counsel he never heeds) always gimps?

Beleg and Mablung were not gimps How many of them were actually gimps? Two? I must be missing some...

The relation between Túrin and Tuor is an interesting one. I have, however, noticed that most people who are blond in Tolkien's mythology are innately good and kind, while many of the dark-haired ones are tragic, cowardly or evil. Skip the line of Elros and of Elrond, if you please.

Turin probably could have been just as heroic and likeable as Tuor, but he was doomed from the start because of Morgoth's power. It would be interesting to ask how much free will Turin has since he seems predisposed to make the wrong choices at critical moments. Not always (he is successful at different periods of time), but he still makes major mistakes often enough. I would say he has free will, but there's still an outside force nudging him in the wrong direction.

The whole Macbeth thing. Except in Macbeth, Macbeth was told to his face what was going to happen, thus increasing his chances of actually committing murder. I agree that there might be an outside force with regard to Túrin, but come on, we all know how stubborn he is. I think half the time he doesn't listen to good counsel is because he does not like counsel, good or bad.