Where is Aeglos?

[ArathornJax]

Is it possible that Aeglos is more a lance/spear along the lines of the Normans? I have several books on this but found a nice entry at TheHistory.Net: British Heritage Magazine Online. It says:

Quote:
"The basic weapon of the Norman cavalry and infantry was a spear with a leaf-shaped head of iron and a wooden haft, usually of ash. The only difference visible in contemporary illustrations between infantry and cavalry spears is that infantry spears sometimes appear thicker in the haft. Both are often shown with a horizontal crossbar beneath the head, intended to prevent excessive penetration. This feature is also found on earlier Saxon and Carolingian weapons. Massed infantry could probably form a hedge of spears as protection against cavalry as they did later in the 12th century, the spear points angled forward, the haft ends resting on the ground. But this is not the usual way in which spears were used. In contemporary illustrations they are more frequently shown held above the head and wielded in a downward stabbing movement, the same technique being used against both cavalry and infantry. Using this technique the spear could be thrown when required and this would explain why in most manuscript illustrations of the 11th and 12th centuries spears would appear to be of lightweight construction.

The cavalry spear, known to us as the lance, was used in much the same way, either at arm's length, usually overarm, or couched under the arm to give greater rigidity to the weapon and force to the attack. When couched the spear would be crossed over the horse's neck right to left where it could be balanced, a technique that had the added advantage that opponents approached each other left side to left side and it was on the left side that they had the added protection of their shield. But even this added protection was not always sufficient."

The link for the article is: http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...tml?page=1&c=y

In this model Aeglos could have been not a heavy lance of the high Middle Ages, but a different type of spear more suited for the armor and weapons of the day. For me this makes a much better sense of what type of spear Aeglos was and of how GG may have used the spear both on horseback and on foot. The Normans also provide some details on the calvary tactics used by the Elves in the First Age (perhaps).

As far as where Aeglos is, by cannon we don't know. I would say the the Elves of Lindon would have returned it to Cirdan who then either kept it with him or sent it over the sea to the West.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Normans

The only thing is, Tolkien didn't like the Normans. Remember who they killed?

But other than that sounds like a good idea, which probably would have worked.

[davem]

There's an interesting description of combat using a spear in Egil's Saga:

Thorolf was thus armed. He had a shield ample and stout, a right strong helmet on his head; he was girded with the sword that he called Long, a weapon large and good. In his hand he had a spear, whereof the feather-formed blade was two ells long, ending in a four-edged spike; the blade was broad above, the socket both long and thick. The shaft stood just high enough for the hand to grasp the socket, and was remarkably thick. The socket fitted with iron prong on the shaft, which was also wound round with iron. Such weapons were called mail-piercers.....

Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his spear with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his spear at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail-coat and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the spear over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. Then Thorolf drew his sword and dealt blows on either side, his men also charging. Many Britons and Scots fell, but some turned and fled.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by davem

There's an interesting description of combat using a spear in Egil's Saga:

The problems with the Sagas is that in many ways you cannot trust them. . .

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

The problems with the Sagas is that in many ways you cannot trust them. . .

Well, not in terms of historical accuracy, no, but they were clearly a major influence on Tolkien. They shaped his concept of M-e & possibly his views on combat. The world of the Silmarillion is very much the world of the Sagas. And Thorolf's dispatching of Hring is less 'fantastical' than Hurin's slaying 70 Trolls.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by davem

Thorolf's dispatching of Hring is less 'fantastical' than Hurin's slaying 70 Trolls.

Well, we don't actually know that Húrin killed 70 trolls. We know he killed 70 enemies including trolls, but it doesn't go into detail (there was a thread on this some time ago, I'll see if I can find it).
Anyway, I like to think that he didkill 70 trolls. But all I'm saying is that the way words are ordered make a difference. Anyway, What you say about ME being a land full of saga-like stories is true.

edit: Well, the thread wasn't actually about about that, but it was discussed here

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, we don't actually know that Húrin killed 70 trolls. We know he killed 70 enemies including trolls, but it doesn't go into detail (there was a thread on this some time ago, I'll see if I can find it).
Anyway, I like to think that he didkill 70 trolls. But all I'm saying is that the way words are ordered make a difference. Anyway, What you say about ME being a land full of saga-like stories is true.

edit: Well, the thread wasn't actually about about that, but it was discussed here

And it would not matter if it was trolls or not unless that in the ranks of Angband there was a creature that died when you looked sternly at it, then Hurin's achievment would seem less fantastical.

[ArathornJax]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

The only thing is, Tolkien didn't like the Normans. Remember who they killed?

But other than that sounds like a good idea, which probably would have worked.

Some other sites that show that this was not just a Norman tactic but an Anglo-Saxon and Viking one also:

http://www.regia.org/spear.htm
http://wychwood.wikidot.com/fighting-spear-vik (interesting training notes)
http://books.google.com/books?id=kjO...hl=en#PPA22,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=fXr...hl=en#PPA13,M1

http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/europeanarms.htm


From the Battle of Maldon we get this:

Advanced again to fierce battle, weapons raised up, shields to defense, and towards these warriors they stepped. Resolute they approached Earl to the lowest Yeoman: each of them intent on harm for the enemy. Sent then a sea-warrior a spear of southern make that wounded the warrior lord. He thrust then with his shield such that the spear shaft burst, and that spear-head shattered as it sprang in reply. Enraged became that warrior: with anger he stabbed that proud Viking who had given him that wound. Experienced was that warrior; he threw his spear forward through the warrior's neck, his hand guiding so that he this ravager's life would fatally pierce. Then he with another stab speedily pierced the ravager so that the chainmail coat broke: this man had a breast wound cut through the linked rings; through his heart stuck a deadly spear. The Earl was the better pleased: laughed then this great man of spirit, thanking the Creator for the day's work which the Lord had given him. And so then another warrior a spear from the other side flew out of hand, which deeply struck through the noble Aethelred's retainer. To him by his side stood a young man not fully grown, a youth on the battlefield, who valiantly pulled out of this warrior the bloody spear, Wulfstan's child, Wulfmaer the younger; and so with blinding speed came the shaft in reply. The spear penetrated, for that who on the Earth now lay among his people, the one who had sorely pierced. Went then armed a man to this Earl; he desirous of this warrior's belongings to take off with, booty and rings and an ornamental sword. Then Byrhtnoth drew his sword from its sheath broad and bright of blade, and then struck the man's coat of mail. But too soon he was prevented by a certain sea-scavenger, and then the Earl's arm was wounded. Fall then to the ground with his gold-hilted sword: his grip unable to hold the heavy sword, or wield the weapon.

I've included it to give credence to how the spear was used in the day.

(Listen to it in Old English and you can also listen to other Anglo Saxon texts in Old English http://fred.wheatonma.edu/wordpressm...lines-100-229/)

The link to hear it in Old English is for fun and for those who may be students of the language.

In the fourth link on the Anglo-Saxon use of the spear as a weapon (which is used very similar to the Normans in hand to hand combat) the shaft heads found in the Thames point to me the fact that the armored head of Aeglos probably survived the burning by Sauron (if GG still held the spear) but the shaft probably did not. If GG had dropped it, then it is quite possible that the entire spear was preserved.

For me, the Viking/Anglo-Saxon/Norman period's use of the spear shows to me how GG used the spear and probably how the spear was used by elves in general. The spear could have been a very common weapon for all Elvish warriors and we know from Tolkien's works that Elvish spearmen were used and feared.

[Eönwë]

Sorry, ArathornJax , you don't have to be so protective. I never once doubted you, I was merely making a point.

So that's the famous Regia Anglorum site.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

For me, the Viking/Anglo-Saxon/Norman period's use of the spear shows to me how GG used the spear and probably how the spear was used by elves in general. The spear could have been a very common weapon for all Elvish warriors and we know from Tolkien's works that Elvish spearmen were used and feared.

hmmm I would think that the elves, being first born and all, would have come up with a better use of the spear. . .Especially if the Elvish spearmen was feared as I have never heard of any dread sorrounding Viking/Anglo-Saxon/Norman spearmen in particular.

"Alas, holy Patrick! unavailing your orisons—.
the Vikings with axes. are hacking your oratories"

About Aiglos, I still think that even if Gil-Galad dropped it and it was not destroyed by Sauron, it would have been stomped to smithereens. Even mighty things of Elven craft can break. Also it would make no sence if this weapon did indeed survive and we heard nothing of it.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

About Aiglos, I still think that even if Gil-Galad dropped it and it was not destroyed by Sauron, it would have been stomped to smithereens.

I remember reading somewhere that Elrond was the standard bearer to Gil-Galad, so of course he would do everything that he could to save the remnents of his commander. If Elrond took the shards of Narsil, which by the way was smashed to smithereens, then he would certainly take Aiglos, and whatever else he could that belonged to Gil-Galad.