Character Analysis Thread

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

No. That "silliness" you speak of is quite annoying in my opinion. Boromir had a sense of humor, he used sarcasm more than once on the journey. He just didn't have (thankfully) the senseless dummy humour that Sam and Tom had. And I'm extremely glad about that. Boromir's stern and proud nature made him stand out, and made him who he was.

I hope my reply above to Gordis elaborates on my comment--do note please my use of the smilie--that sometimes those who can distance themselves from their most passionate wishes and nature are those who can the most successfully avoid falling prey to those passions and wishes. And a sense of humour provides that distance. Given both Sam's heroic stature and Tom's immunity to the Ring's lure I would humbly suggest that it is worthwhile to ponder with some degree of respect this ability of theirs. Sarcasm can sometimes be taken humorously but more often it denotes derision and contempt, something quite different from what I was suggesting as a way of understanding oneself and knowing onself.

Originally Posted by MattewM

I can't stand when people take the blood quote literally. All Gandalf implied was character traits.

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?

Because it doesn't make any sense and simply is not true. Boromir was every bit of Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor were. The only difference was that Faramir did not possess Boromir's position or pride and had a different demeanor than his brother. The great part about this is the unshakable bond the brothers had, despite their character differences.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Why get so riled up by different interpretations? Why does that idea of a literal meaning bother you so much?

Good question, especially considering that I basically agreed with you, MatthewM. Cool down, please.

What I meant was that IF it were blood alone that determined person's features, THEN any siblings would have been identical twins, as they share exactly the same blood. Yet, they are usually NOT identical: the fact that Gandalf was surely aware of. "Blood" that may or may not "run true" was simply a figure of speech - before the mankind acquired knowledge about genes. It is the same as to say "I love you with all my heart", despite the fact that a heart as such has nothing to do with any emotions.

Bethberry - I have a feeling that humor directed on one's self and Bombadil-ish silliness were hardly desirable in leaders of men, like Aragorn and Boromir. Both were proud and deadly serious about their fate, their place and lineage.
Look like Aragorn bristled when Gimli asked him about his talk with Sauron:

‘Did you say aught to - him?
‘You forget to whom you speak,’ said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. ‘Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? What do you fear that I should say to him?"

Rangers of the North were characterized as "grim" in general: even the nine nazgul showed more humor than they did.
Frodo by the end of the quest lost all his sense of humor altogether, as did Denethor by the end of the siege. And I can't really blame them...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Good question, especially considering that I basically agreed with you, MatthewM. Cool down, please.

Alright. I apologize...

Originally Posted by Gordis

What I meant was that IF it were blood alone that determined person's features, THEN any siblings would have been identical twins, as they share exactly the same blood. Yet, they are usually NOT identical: the fact that Gandalf was surely aware of. "Blood" that may or may not "run true" was simply a figure of speech - before the mankind acquired knowledge about genes. It is the same as to say "I love you with all my heart", despite the fact that a heart as such has nothing to do with any emotions.

Exactly. I wasn't clear of your stance.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Bethberry - I have a feeling that humor directed on one's self and Bombadil-ish silliness were hardly desirable in leaders of men, like Aragorn and Boromir. Both were proud and deadly serious about their fate, their place and lineage.
Look like Aragorn bristled when Gimli asked him about his talk with Sauron:
Rangers of the North were characterized as "grim" in general: even the nine nazgul showed more humor than they did.
Frodo by the end of the quest lost all his sense of humor altogether, as did Denethor by the end of the siege. And I can't really blame them...

Exactly.

[Bêthberry]

Gentlemen, Tolkien probably has the best lines to express my opinion of this discussion about humour and distance:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Letters

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. [...] You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person.

And that I believe sums up all I wish to say.

I am, however, glad that amends have been made about the anger over the blood issue. Really, I was wondering if people were thinking that the comment implied some sort of hanky panky by Finduilas or some more dire event (hence her increasing dark spirits, long decline, and ultimate death after marrying Denethor) and that's what drew the ire.

[ArathornJax]

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.
Faramir is the opposite and loves music and lore, is equally bold and daring when the situation calls for it, but not just for glory's sake. Faramir could "read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he saw did not lead him to scorn others but to pity what he saw" in them. Faramir in many ways reminds me of Aragorn.

Appendix A makes it very clear that both are Denethor's son because it states that Boromir was like his father in face and pride, but in nothing else. Faramir was like his father in both looks and in mind.

So I have to believe that genetically Boromir received less Numenorean traits then his father had, or that his younger brother received. That is not a slight to him, but for me it is a fact of who Boromir is. It helps us to understand who he is, and why he does what he does. I would also say that his environment had a lot probably to do with each son as well as parental expectations.

In the end Boromir was all warrior and is very prideful like his father. It is his pride/ego that lead him to being tempted by the ring, and his attempt to take it. Faramir though, because of his insight and his wisdom, is able to resist the very temptation of the ring outright. Faramir stated "Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee." For me then it is Faramir's Numenorean traits that allow him to not be tempted by the ring, while Boromir's ego and pride, that lead him to succumb to the influence/temptation of the ring. I don't think that lessens Boromir, for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

So, I think both brothers are fascinating for different reasons, one of them being how different they are, yet how much they loved and either supported or accepted each other. They are true brothers and family members who understood each other's stengths and weaknesses. Much like them, we may have our favorites, but I think it is important to remember that both play their role in the novel in helping it reach its conclusion.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.

I disagree. Boromir was every bit Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor was. He was not like them in mind! That is one sole aspect that Tolkien cites. Boromir was of the same lineage of his sibling and his father. He was not more of a traditional man- he was 6'4", built like an ox, and the strongest man in Gondor! He was of "high Numenorean lineage" as Tolkien points in a letter located in the Bodleian Library in Oxford (p.229, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull). A man from a simple background could not claim such a title. Fact is fact, Boromir was every bit of Numenorean that Faramir and Denethor was! He was unlike them in every aspect of mind (because he shared Denethor's pride)- that's IT!!!

Originally Posted by AJ

for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

It is easy to see?! Of course it was, he was the Captain General! Boromir was ten times the warrior that Faramir was!!! Faramir did not even compare to Boromir in the realm of battle!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I brought it up so just to discuss some differences between Faramir and Boromir and their father for that matter, since there was a comment that is what the discussion is focused on. I had expected more of a discussion along the lines of what is found in Appendix A. For me, Boromir is less Numenorean and more traditional man, as expressed better by Appendix A. He loves war and battle, is strong and fearless, takes no wife like King Earnur (whom he is compared to), an relishes the non-tranditional Numenorean interests of battle and arms. Boromir has little interest in the tranditional Numenorean interests of lore (except in ancient or former battles) and music, while not possessing the foresight and seeing into the hearts of men like Faramir and his father.
Faramir is the opposite and loves music and lore, is equally bold and daring when the situation calls for it, but not just for glory's sake. Faramir could "read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he saw did not lead him to scorn others but to pity what he saw" in them. Faramir in many ways reminds me of Aragorn.

Appendix A makes it very clear that both are Denethor's son because it states that Boromir was like his father in face and pride, but in nothing else. Faramir was like his father in both looks and in mind.

So I have to believe that genetically Boromir received less Numenorean traits then his father had, or that his younger brother received. That is not a slight to him, but for me it is a fact of who Boromir is. It helps us to understand who he is, and why he does what he does. I would also say that his environment had a lot probably to do with each son as well as parental expectations.

In the end Boromir was all warrior and is very prideful like his father. It is his pride/ego that lead him to being tempted by the ring, and his attempt to take it. Faramir though, because of his insight and his wisdom, is able to resist the very temptation of the ring outright. Faramir stated "Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee." For me then it is Faramir's Numenorean traits that allow him to not be tempted by the ring, while Boromir's ego and pride, that lead him to succumb to the influence/temptation of the ring. I don't think that lessens Boromir, for like his brother it is easy to see that Boromir was a great leader in battle. It does make for a nice compare and contrast on the two.

So, I think both brothers are fascinating for different reasons, one of them being how different they are, yet how much they loved and either supported or accepted each other. They are true brothers and family members who understood each other's stengths and weaknesses. Much like them, we may have our favorites, but I think it is important to remember that both play their role in the novel in helping it reach its conclusion.

This is an interesting look at the Appendix, ArathornJax and I think a very fair analysis. Quite true that we all have our favourites.

It is interesting that it is pity and mercy which give Faramir strength rather than raw brawn--no wonder he welcomes Gandalf, which his father regretfully would or could not do, out of pride and fear that the Wizard would take the Steward's inheritance.

The comparison of Boromir with Earnur is very interesting, for in the Appendix we are told something about Earnur's nature as a leader.

Originally Posted by Appendix A

Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or a king, .

Now, the Appendix is, I take it, written in the Narrator's Omniscience and we have little in the story proper of LotR to contrast and compare his (I assume 'he' is the correct gender) comments. Normally I suppose we assume that the Narrator is speaking with full authorial authority. Yet when Farmir speaks with Frodo and Sam, we have Faramir making a comment which the Appendix later supports. Here is Faramir's explanation to Sam and Frodo of the relations between the Rohirrim and the Gondorian peoples.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, The Window on the West

"Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and scarce can claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn." Faramir sighed and fell silent for a while.

Quite intriguing, eh wot?

[MatthewM]

The extreme similarities between King Earnur and Boromir are well known.