What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Also, I have a question. Do you think that Goldberry could be Ulmo's last contact with ME? She definitely is connected with water, which Ulmo just happens to control. Is it just coinciedence? Maybe she knows much more than she says.

This is actually very interesting idea. Ulmo's power was leaving the streams and rivers of Middle-Earth even during the First Age, and then of course, when the Valar laid down their power over Arda after the Fall of Númenor, he would leave M-E to itself like they did. However, I wonder whether Ulmo would not, as it has been his habit, still remain a little more active than the other Valar (more than just sending in the Istari, which was the only thing we know the Valar did by the time of Third Age) - one of these manifestations of his interest in the affairs of Third Age Middle-Earth being Goldberry. Still, there would be the question what is her presence supposed to mean, or what is the purpose of her being there (maybe just a spirit of water as a side effect of the "informator" status of the waters? I certainly don't think Goldberry would be a true "informator" herself - or not in the plain sense, at least).

PS. I can tell you like this subject Legate, especially the bits about Ulmo, which I'm sure doesn't have anything to do with your title (The Voice that Gainsayeth?)... Hmm?

Ulmo is the Vala I always liked the most, and among other things, the choice of my personal title was influenced by this. So you can make the picture out of it

[Bêthberry]

Excellent topic, as always, Esty!

In discussing Goldberry, we have to consider both the Bombadil verse and the LotR. The two present different views of her and of her spouse. It is almost as if the original verses represent an older folkloric tradition that has been overlaid by a later version.

I have in the past associated Goldberry (through my rpg character) with Uinen and Osse. The story of Ulmo's vassal who was tempted by Melkor and then returned to faithful following by the intervention of his wife Uinen has seemed to me to be more in keeping with the original tales of Tom's and Goldberry's nature. Osse has the power to make sea storms while Uinen calms them. I'm sure seastorms still existed in the Third Age, so I'm not sure if this particular power was still ascribed to the husband and wife of the waters even as Ulmo's power was said to be receeding.

As to the link through music, well, I wonder if we need to clarify what precisely was the original music of Arda. Was it a music of sound, as we normally associate the word, or was it rather a music of proportion, order, and measure? Music and the history of music is not really my balliwick, but I think that originally the word implied order and proportion without sound--the mathematical relationships of the universe. Yet Goldberry's "washing day" and the implied control over weather might imply some relationship less controlled and even, possibly, aligned with chaos? The female element in early folklore often pertains to elements outside human order.

Water is also a culturally derived signifier of cleansing--Goldberry's "washing day", to say nothing of the generations of women who wash their clothes in the waters of a river's edge, throughout human cultures--so that works against the chaotic element, unless, for example, the chaos of the drowning of Numenor is regarded as of just proportion and order.

just some random thoughts from Bethberry

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As to the link through music, well, I wonder if we need to clarify what precisely was the original music of Arda. Was it a music of sound, as we normally associate the word, or was it rather a music of proportion, order, and measure? Music and the history of music is not really my balliwick, but I think that originally the word implied order and proportion without sound--the mathematical relationships of the universe.

I am actually not that much acquainted with this matter as well, but what you said reminded me - any resemblance with the "music of the spheres" and the Pythagorean view of the universe? There may be some parallel, or connection, even unconscious. I would have to think of it.

Yet Goldberry's "washing day" and the implied control over weather might imply some relationship less controlled and even, possibly, aligned with chaos? The female element in early folklore often pertains to elements outside human order.

Water is also a culturally derived signifier of cleansing--Goldberry's "washing day", to say nothing of the generations of women who wash their clothes in the waters of a river's edge, throughout human cultures--so that works against the chaotic element, unless, for example, the chaos of the drowning of Numenor is regarded as of just proportion and order.

Well, why have you thought of chaos in the first place? When you mentioned it, the first thing I also thought about was "washing" in some deeper meaning (the more if Goldberry is "higher" spirit and there is something more behind her "simple" look; the more if she were associated with Ulmo) - indeed, cleansing looks pretty good idea to me, especially at this time, when we know - confirming with the UT and such - that all the Old Forest and Barrow-Downs were awakened by the Riders, and all evil things were stirring; the day before Old Man Willow trapped the Hobbits. What if Goldberry's "washing day" is, apart from the obvious connotations, indeed some mending of this, putting at least the Forest to rest? I see this as a pretty good idea.

[Morthoron]

From my standpoint, Goldberry (and her fashion-addled hubby, Tom) are enigmatic because they do not fit in a cosmogonical sense in Middle-earth -- they are in fact from outside of that universe. They do not precisely fit categorically into any designation in Middle-earth (they have attributes of Maiar, but have puzzling disparities as well); this is, I believe, Tolkien's personal joke on all of us.

When Bombadil (and by extension, Goldberry) claims he is 'the first', that is Tolkien winking at us, because Tom's tale did indeed come before the writing of LotR from both a conceptual and published standpoint. Goldberry and Tom, by Tolkien's own accounts, were important in their own right as characters and warranted their inclusion in the LotR. In fact, there is a letter Tolkien wrote to his publisher asking if Tom might be included in the story, although he does not necessarily fit tidily. Tom (and Goldberry) were written in for no other reason than Tolkien liked them and thought they were important in a personal sense beyond the telling of LotR.

And thus, like balrogs wings, the intellectual battle over Tom (and Goldberry) rages on unabated.

P.S. The Maiaric reference to Tom and Goldberry are certainly strong, particularly the maintenance of power in a defined area (much like Melian's girdle), their affinity and reverence of woods and water (like Maiaric disciples of Yavanna and Ulmo), and their power over the unseen (spiritually -- as in the Barrows) and nature (physically -- as in Tom's taming of Old Man Willow and Goldberry's washing day).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good, Morthoron, good, but allow me please one remark - what you wrote applies a lot to Tom, but not to Goldberry. Despite the fact they are put together as a couple, Goldberry does not seem otherworldly (quite the opposite - she is descended from "river", an existing creation!), says nothing in the sense that "she is" or that she'd be "oldest", and I think (though I am just guessing, I am not that acquainted with the Letters) Tolkien did not mention her as a problem in the Letters. All you said applies only to Tom. But ultimately, that says nothing about Goldberry!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Good, Morthoron, good, but allow me please one remark - what you wrote applies a lot to Tom, but not to Goldberry. Despite the fact they are put together as a couple, Goldberry does not seem otherworldly (quite the opposite - she is descended from "river", an existing creation!), says nothing in the sense that "she is" or that she'd be "oldest", and I think (though I am just guessing, I am not that acquainted with the Letters) Tolkien did not mention her as a problem in the Letters. All you said applies only to Tom. But ultimately, that says nothing about Goldberry!

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

I was not speaking in reference to Goldberry's original incarnation in the poem (which other posters have touched on here -- nymph, folkish water spirit, etc.), rather, her relationship strictly in context to LotR (or rather her uncontextuality). Interestingly enough, the name Goldberry could be taken to mean 'Flower Queen' in Sindarin (Golodh-bereth).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

Now, that said, I sometimes wonder if she isn't also a bit of a holdover from other ideas Tolkien had once entertained, then discarded. From what we see of some of his earlier versions of The Silmarillion in the HoME books, the Valar/Ainur we see in what we think of as TS aren't the same as what Tolkien had once conceived. At some point, they were more "classic mythology" rather than "angelic" in nature. Even after Tolkien started referring to the Powers as the Valar rather than "the gods," he conceived of the Maiar as the Valarindi, the Children of the Valar; early versions of Eonwe and Ilmare (called, I believe Fionwe and Erinti) were the offspring of Manwe and Varda. I'm not saying that Goldberry (and possibly Tom) was ever another child of the Valar in Tolkien's mind, since no evidence of this exists, but in pure speculation, a character who appears to be more than human, referred to as the "River-daughter" could have (at some time in the evolution of Tolkien's created world) been indeed the daughter of a greater power, like Ulmo, or perhaps even Uinen (after all, if the Valar could reproduce, why would their children not also have this capacity?). Given the scope of what Tolkien was creating, I can well imagine that there were many, many more possibilities he devised, then discarded; and I think that it's possible that some aspects of these myriad variations might have crept into the final work -- some intentionally, others not so, just bits of that bigger tapestry he liked for some reason and didn't want to wholly abandon (rather like Tom himself, I suspect).

Just muddying the waters (so to speak)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

There are several views in which we can look at the topic. We can look at what Goldberry was supposed to represent in Tolkien's universe, even at different stages (as Ibri mentioned), whether she is anachronic in LotR or not, whether she is even consistent with the world etc.
What I am asking, is what would we say from the "in-world" point of view, i.e. if you were omniscient inhabitant of M-E who makes classifications of all people and creatures of Arda, what would you say about Goldberry? You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

. Interestingly enough, the name Goldberry could be taken to mean 'Flower Queen' in Sindarin (Golodh-bereth).

Or even a corruption of 'gold-bearer' which would be a nice kenning for a forest-river with fallen autumn leaves being carried upon its surface.