Anger in the Old Forest!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

When I read the first post I knew how I would respond, unfortunately Legate and Mr. Spence used almost the exact same wording as I would have. . .

So I would just like to add that it seems improbable that The Old Forrest should be made by the entwives or that they should dwell there.

1. As Mr. Spence pointed out The Old Forrest and Fangorn used to be 1
2. The Entwives prefered their gardens
3. If the Entwives where to leave their home (the brown lands) for The Old Forrest, then the Ents would probably have detected them.

[Morwen]

This also brings up another interesting question for me, was there a reason that Tom Bombadil dwelt so close to the forest, or was it purely by chance and not related at all the "angry forest."?

It's mentioned at the Council of Elrond that Tom is in a self imposed retirement of sorts, withdrawn into a little land whose boundaries he will not cross. If what he desired was isolation or at least not being regularly disturbed, then living between the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs is a good choice.

[Eönwë]

Well, I'm sure there must have been some huorns.

But was Old Man Willow one? that would explain a lot.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

A while back I discussed this sort of thing with some friends and some interesting theories arose. The odd thing that connects Fangorn to the Old Forest, besides the once physical connection, is the attitude of the trees. This raises the question; is this solely caused by age or are there other factors involved? During the discussion, one theory in particular struck me as interesting...

The Entwives were interested in order and, as it were, controlling the plants. I seem to recall Trebeard implying they wanted to, in a sense, bend them to their will. Given the reaction of more sentient lifeforms to similar attempts by Melkor, Sauron and so on, of rebellion and not a little anger, is it possible that the Entwive's 'ordering' of the forest caused at least some of the anger?

I would take this further. If the trees see the Entwives as 'things that go on two legs', so to speak, and the 'ordering' of their lives was seen as some sort of oppression, then other creatures who resemble them will encourage similar reactions. We know the Hobbits were fond of gardens, we know they made the hedge and cut back a lot of trees (albeit, when they attacked). If this theory bears some manner of truth, it seems likely to me that, perhaps, the trees felt that the Hobbits may have been continuing the sort of thing the Entwives were doing.

We know Sam's cousin (allegedly) saw an Ent-like creature prowling the Shire. Even if this is not an Entwife, it may well be the kind of thing that would re-open the trees' old hatreds, if it had been there since the forests 'split'.

Then we have Bombadil; always a spanner in the works. He, again, seems to be one for ordering things, in a way. He can, for whatever reason, control in song the Willow Man, the rain and the Barrow Wight. A controlling force of Bombadil's stature living so close may well be a constant annoyance to the forest (not to mention his songs ), again IF this theory is correct...

All the same, this is all speculation. What say you?

[Gwathagor]

I'm pretty sure that the Old Forest is made up of huorns rather than Entwives. First, Entwives seem too benevolent to me to be waylaying travelers. Second, Entwives don't live in forests, but gardens. Third, would Entwives really be mistaken for trees? They look even less like trees than their male counterparts, and all Onod-kind have humanoid bodies.

Old Man Willow seems to me like a black-hearted huorn, rather than an Entwife, as he is both stationary and masculine.

I'm inclined to agree with Rune and skip that the Old Forest trees are probably resentful of the intrusion of the Children of Illuvatar upon their ancient territory, whether it be hobbits or Bree-landers or whoever.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm pretty sure that the Old Forest is made up of huorns rather than Entwives.

Old Man Willow seems to me like a black-hearted huorn, rather than an Entwife, as he is both stationary and masculine.

I don't think Old Man Willow, or the other malevolent trees in the Old Forest can be classified as huorns. As far as I can remember, Huorns were like Ents, of a humanoid shape, but slowly reverting to a more vegetative state of being, becoming more like trees. But they could still be roused and move much like the Ents, even to swiftly march great distances over open land, as the Helm's deep episode demonstrates. Old Man Willow in contrast is very much a tree, albeit an ancient and cunning one with a great singing voice. I don't think he can move much, or unroot himself. And since he's the most notorious tree in the Forest, I assume the others are more or less like him, only less powerful. In fact, during the wonderfully written Old Forest chapter, the Hobbits never actually witness anything that can't be attributed to a sudden gust of wind or lively imagination. That is, of course, with the exception of the cracks that swallow people. The story of when the trees attacked the hedge is also presented very much like a legend. Maybe something like that actually happened, but it happened many generations ago and the story must have been greatly elaborated upon since then.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I don't think Old Man Willow, or the other malevolent trees in the Old Forest can be classified as huorns. As far as I can remember, Huorns were like Ents, of a humanoid shape, but slowly reverting to a more vegetative state of being, becoming more like trees. But they could still be roused and move much like the Ents, even to swiftly march great distances over open land, as the Helm's deep episode demonstrates. Old Man Willow in contrast is very much a tree, albeit an ancient and cunning one with a great singing voice. I don't think he can move much, or unroot himself. And since he's the most notorious tree in the Forest, I assume the others are more or less like him, only less powerful.

Depends on how far huorns reach, and what do you classify as "huorn" yet and what not. There are ents who start to seem more treeish, but there are also trees who start to "awaken" and become more "entish", or simply, more "alive". In fact, Old Man Willow fits pretty well to this description given by Treebeard:

Originally Posted by Two Towers; Chapter 4: Treebeard

Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. That is going on all the time.
When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts.

The funny thing is that in the next moment he speaks about willows by Entwash who were good. Just a remark on Treebeard's side, however from the position of the author, it may be a signal to the reader: "willows! Remember?" So that you may connect these two speeches. It's just my interpretation, though. However, the dialogue continues...

Originally Posted by Two Towers; Chapter 4: Treebeard

"There used to be some very dangerous parts in this country. There are still some very black patches."
"Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?" asked Merry.
"Aye, aye. something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am."

I suggest reading the whole passage about this; while it is not clear if we can just label Old Man Willow as one of those, it is interesting thing about the nature of the trees.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Depends on how far huorns reach, and what do you classify as "huorn" yet and what not.

Of course. I don't know what is and what isn't a huorn, ent or tree. Guess my point is that the huorns at Helm's Deep seem very different to Old Man Willow, how should I say, more "alive" and mobile. Old Man Willow is very much a tree, despite his cunning and dark influence.

[Rumil]

Also remember the trees/huorns/ents of the Old Forest had a specific grudge against the hobbits.

The trees approached the hedge some years before LoTR but were cut down and burnt by the Bucklanders, thus the 'Bonfire glade' a suitable clear patch for hobbit picknicks no doubt, but to 'the trees' a scene of grisly massacre surely!

[Groin Redbeard]

Leave it to me to make a mountain out of a simple mole-hill. Thanks for all the answers, ya'll got this problem solved in no time at all.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

This subject does bring up a related topic. Why would
ents and huorns seem to be only endemic to Eriador and Fangorn?
Coming from Beleriand it would seem to be no great feat for them
to get to Mirkwood via, say, the Ered Mithrain, not even having
thereby to contend with rivers such as the Greyflood. Or even
getting to the trollshaws, where they could make mincemeat
of even the likes of Tom or Bert!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Why would
ents and huorns seem to be only endemic to Eriador and Fangorn?

Is this an assumtion or do you have any textual support for it? Because I see no reason to assume the Ents and Huorns were endemic to these places. Firstly, as can be understood from my previous post, I don't believe there were any Ents or Huorns in the Old Forest, at least not at the time Frodo and company passed through. Secondly, I find it easy to believe that there could have been remnants of the ancient forests in the eastern parts of ME as well as in the northwest, and that Ents and Huorns might be found there. After all, whatever happened to the Entwifes?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Leave it to me to make a mountain out of a simple mole-hill. Thanks for all the answers, ya'll got this problem solved in no time at all.

We did not really solve much. . .still don't know what happened to the entwives.

[Groin Redbeard]

An excellent question, Tuor of Gondolin. My guess that we don’t hear of Huorns in Mirkwood is because of the evil that has always dwelt within its borders. Dol Guldor for example, I don’t think that you would want dwell in the same place that your enemy does. Eraidor is as far away from evil as you can possibly get, and Fangorn is right next to Orthanc (remember that Saruman was friendly towards trees back then) where they could get immediate protection from Treebeard and Saruman.