Elves- A second puberty?

[MatthewM]

I have always wondered questions like this, in specific beardedness in Middle-earth.

Tolkien gives a mix of ideas, ranging from bearded and beardless Elves to bearded and beardless Numenoreans and those of their blood.

My main question about this has always been, since Tolkien cites that Numenoreans take after the fashion of Elves, if Elves grow a beard in their third cycle of life, do Numenoreans as well? If so, the "third cycle" of a Numenorean's life would be a much younger age than the third cycle of an Elf's life. When would a Numenorean (or one so descended such as Boromir, Denethor, Faramir, Aragorn...) grow a beard? Or did they just shave? Did people even shave in M-e?

The world may never know, but these are my nitpicky questions that I wish Tolkien had answered.

[Roa_Aoife]

It seems clear that originally Cirdan's hair was silver. Perhaps the description of his hair being grey was not so much the loss of color (as the greying that our hair goes through in old age) but the loss of the sheen that made it look silver. The soul of an Elf is a bright burning flame. It stands to reason that as an Elf reaches the third stage of life, that flame dims a little, causes them to lose a little of the shine that follows their description in almost every instance. So Cirdan's hair may have been the same color, but dimmed somehow. Does that make sense?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

My main question about this has always been, since Tolkien cites that Numenoreans take after the fashion of Elves, if Elves grow a beard in their third cycle of life, do Numenoreans as well? If so, the "third cycle" of a Numenorean's life would be a much younger age than the third cycle of an Elf's life. When would a Numenorean (or one so descended such as Boromir, Denethor, Faramir, Aragorn...) grow a beard? Or did they just shave? Did people even shave in M-e?

I tend to think that the Numenoreans only got a beard when heir "blessed years" were over. By that I mean the years when they stayed young for sometimes over a hundread years (much more in the early Numenoreans). After that then they got old and my guess is also bearded.

But to me, Boromir and Faramir don't seem to be true Numenoreans, so I think they just shaved, as was probably the custom of their people. Aragorn, has more Numenorean blood in him, but still, I think after all those years of "mixing" with non-Numenoreans, he must have had a beard (but was probably even more likely to shave).

But I have a question- Are all Numenoreans direct descendants of Elros? Because otherwise, it would have a very small population, all with severe gentic disease (incest). And in the UT, I remember that at some time, a royal was only allowed to marry another descendant of Elros, which to me means that there were non-Elros people on the island. But did they also live longer? Was it because of the people or the island or both?

[Alfirin]

I think it is safe to say that Aragorn was clean shaven (in spite of the cartoon ROTK, where he had a quite respectable beard) It seems that was the fashion in amoung ME men or at least amoung Gondorians and Arnorians. When Tolkein describes the people Near and Far Harad he makes much point of the fact that they are bearded "like dwarves". If any signficant portion of Men in the West did grow beards the difference would not be so commented on. In fact whenever beardedness is metioned amoung the other races (except for dwarves, of course) is is marked as being something unusual and probably recessive. The fact that the some of the Stoors can grow beards sets them apart from the other hobbits (it is also siginficant that tese beards are considered a Mannish trait, like wearing shoes). When a woodwose grows a small, mosslike beard (as metioned in the Drunedain essay in the Unfinished tales) is is considered a remarkable and imporessive feat. On the other hand, all of the wizards are have beards and none of the men think that that sets them apart from other men so there must be some men in ME with facial hair.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I tend to think that the Numenoreans only got a beard when heir "blessed years" were over. By that I mean the years when they stayed young for sometimes over a hundread years (much more in the early Numenoreans). After that then they got old and my guess is also bearded.

But to me, Boromir and Faramir don't seem to be true Numenoreans, so I think they just shaved, as was probably the custom of their people. Aragorn, has more Numenorean blood in him, but still, I think after all those years of "mixing" with non-Numenoreans, he must have had a beard (but was probably even more likely to shave).

But I have a question- Are all Numenoreans direct descendants of Elros? Because otherwise, it would have a very small population, all with severe gentic disease (incest). And in the UT, I remember that at some time, a royal was only allowed to marry another descendant of Elros, which to me means that there were non-Elros people on the island. But did they also live longer? Was it because of the people or the island or both?

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, I was of the impression that Numenor was populated by the men of the three houses of the Edain, so descendants of Haleth, Hador and Beor (Haleth was one of the three, correct?) were all on the island. If I remember rightly, Aldarions wife, Erendis, was of the house of Beor, and they were not as long lived as those of Elros' royal line? I'm not sure.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Maedhros_the_Tall

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, I was of the impression that Numenor was populated by the men of the three houses of the Edain, so descendants of Haleth, Hador and Beor (Haleth was one of the three, correct?) were all on the island. If I remember rightly, Aldarions wife, Erendis, was of the house of Beor, and they were not as long lived as those of Elros' royal line? I'm not sure.

But the question is, when you so not so longer lived, does that mean normal lifespan, or just shorter than the descendants of Elros's.

[mark12_30]

Whether it's silver or gray-- isn't the main question, why Cirdan has a beard?

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But the question is, when you so not so longer lived, does that mean normal lifespan, or just shorter than the descendants of Elros's.

My take on it would be for it to mean that they had a longer lifespan than the men left in darkness on middle earth, but not as long as Elros' line.

If i can use the example of Aldarion and Erendis, Erendis, not of Elros' line, lived from 771-985 SA, making her 214 years old when she passed, whereas Aldarion, being of the royal line, lived from 700- 1098 SA, making him 398 years old when she passed.

[Elmo]

Didn't Erendis kill herself? I don't think her lifespan can be taken as a normal Numenorean one then But the plebs in Numenor did live shorter lives.

[Eönwë]

So Elmo, does that mean it was the island, not Elros?

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Ach, your right Elmo, she didn't die of natural causes did she!!! Bugger.