No Sun or Moon

[Hookbill the Goomba]

As one learning Hebrew I feel I HAVE TO point out a slight mistake...

Originally Posted by alatar

Moses in Genesis 1:3-5
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day..

Actually, the Hebrew reads "Yom Ekhad", "Day One". The rest of them are labeled 'second', 'third', 'fourth' and so on. 'One' is absolute, 'first' is comparative. <--- closests to geeky glasses...

But, yes, you are right, light came before the sun even in Genesis. Though it is not unique even amongst mesopotamian creation narratives. The root word, in Hebrew, is “אור” (Or) which means; to ‘become light’, ‘shine’, ‘be enlightened’, ‘kindle’ and ‘light’. The word is also used to mean; ‘glorious’.
The obvious question is ‘where is the light coming from?’ because we, as yet, do not have the sun. In Jewish mysticism, a lot is said about this light. Some say it is ‘the light of ultimate awareness’. It is given all sorts of attributes, such as being a thousand times brighter than the sun and allowing someone to see across time. What I find most interesting (and this is why I think it is relevant), is that the definition 'to enlighten' is expounded upon in a few writings. That this light is not like visible light, but rather, the light of knowledge. Again, I do not think this idea is restricted to Jewish Mysticism. The idea is that, before the sun, there was a time of 'enlightenment' where knowledge was abounding.

I think this ties in with the idea that there is some sort of 'Golden Age'. The time of the lamps is one that brings the trees that are like living mountains. They never appear again. The time of the Two Trees brings forth many things of beauty, not least, The Silmarills, which are never equaled. This narrative device of a Golden Age is prominent in a lot of Tolkien's work. The Sun and Moon ages are 'normal', whereas the Lamps and the Trees represent a time immemorial, where wisdom was fresh and things were different.

This idea of time before the sun is an interesting one.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

As one learning Hebrew I feel I HAVE TO point out a slight mistake...

Actually, the Hebrew reads "Yom Ekhad", "Day One". The rest of them are labeled 'second', 'third', 'fourth' and so on. 'One' is absolute, 'first' is comparative. <--- closests to geeky glasses...

You will want to let those who collated the NIV, KJV and NKJV. The NASV states it as "one day" and "a fourth day."

And your thoughts regarding 'enlightenment are interesting. Never saw that light before.

This idea of time before the sun is an interesting one.

It comes up frequently when discussing Genesis between those that read it as a literal seven day creation and those that see it as more poetic/allegoric.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by alatar

You will want to let those who collated the NIV, KJV and NKJV. The NASV states it as "one day" and "a fourth day."

I can see why they render it 'first', editors want consistency. It also makes it look more poetic (which it is, the Hebrew is filled with alliteration, puns and rhyme). But enough of this nerd fest.

I read somewhere once that "Poetry is more interested with truth than history".

Anyway...

Tolkien's vision of an age without the sun fills me with intrigue. I really like the idea. Middle Earth was, presumably, quite cold, at the time, though.
The Lamps raise some interesting topics, though. They are raised on mountains, yet they are fashioned by Aule. So, they are like an ultimate 'work of hands', as it were. How quickly are they thrown down? Pretty quickly. The Trees, a more 'natural' source of light, last a little longer and require Melkor to use a bit more of his cunning. The Sun is what confounds him at the last. Perhaps this is Tolkien's love of nature winning over manufacture coming through. I like to think so.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

In Jewish mysticism, a lot is said about this light. Some say it is ‘the light of ultimate awareness’. It is given all sorts of attributes, such as being a thousand times brighter than the sun and allowing someone to see across time. What I find most interesting (and this is why I think it is relevant), is that the definition 'to enlighten' is expounded upon in a few writings. That this light is not like visible light, but rather, the light of knowledge. Again, I do not think this idea is restricted to Jewish Mysticism. The idea is that, before the sun, there was a time of 'enlightenment' where knowledge was abounding.

Oh! This comes up in Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco.