Gandalf Vs. The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 06-29-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mansun

''I have been sent back until my task is done''.

That's more of a hint, though. It certainly sugggests something divine at work, but it doesn't actually say anything specific.

06-29-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's more of a hint, though. It certainly sugggests something divine at work, but it doesn't actually say anything specific.

Hint or not, that particular scene in the Two Towers was one which was used to show the supernatural higher order of power that Gandalf was.

Keyan · 08-26-2009, 01:03 PM

I just found this thread today..and I'm sure it will open up more old wounds, but anyway, I felt I wanted to put in my 2 cents:

When I first saw this scene, I was shocked. I felt that its inclusion showed that PJ didn't truly understand Tolkien, or the characters, at all. There is some other evidence of this, or at least of just bad use of language (which is about as anti-Tolkien as you can get), but I digress...

After thinking about the scene more, I think the biggest problem is the complete and somewhat over the top fear that Gandalf displays. He would not be afraid, he had even "died" already, and knew if he died it would not be his true end, as he explains to Pippin with the "green land under a swift sunrise" line earlier.

In the appendices this scene is actually addressed, and IIRC (it's been a while) I think PJ even says he knew it would get a mixed reaction, but it was included to show that basically the age of the old powers was waning, and that Men alone would be able to save Middle earth. The arrival of the Rohirrim is designed to highlight that point. Given this context, the scene makes more sense...I still just don't like how it was played out.

As far as the "Aragorn beating him with some burning sticks" type comments, I feel that it's pretty well established that the Black Riders are less powerful than the fully equipped Nazgul that come later. To me, it seems that their power grows along with the power of their Master, as they are shadows of his power and are bound to it. As the Ring gets heavier, and Sauron's power and influence increase, so does the power of the Nine, which would explain their relative weakness earlier in the story vs their power near the end.

Anyway, it seems that there is a very intelligent and thoughtful group here, I hope to participate some in other areas.

alatar · 08-26-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyan

I just found this thread today..and I'm sure it will open up more old wounds, but anyway, I felt I wanted to put in my 2 cents:

When I first saw this scene, I was shocked. I felt that its inclusion showed that PJ didn't truly understand Tolkien, or the characters, at all. There is some other evidence of this, or at least of just bad use of language (which is about as anti-Tolkien as you can get), but I digress...

I totally agree. This scene prompted me to join an internet forum where I could vent...and the rest is history.

Welcome to the Downs, Keyan! Hope you enjoy your stay.

Tuor in Gondolin · 08-26-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keyan
As far as the "Aragorn beating him with some burning sticks" type comments, I feel that it's pretty well established that the Black Riders are less powerful than the fully equipped Nazgul that come later. To me, it seems that their power grows along with the power of their Master, as they are shadows of his power and are bound to it. As the Ring gets heavier, and Sauron's power and influence increase, so does the power of the Nine, which would explain their relative weakness earlier in the story vs their power near the end.

And Aragorn (not movie Aragorn!) was already a powerful, self-assured
figure, head of the Dunedain, "greatest traveler of the age", and warrior of Rohan and Gondor, and so would be less affected by the chief weapon of the nazgul---fear.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 08-27-2009, 08:11 AM

Shock didn't even begin to describe my reaction to that scene in Jackson's movie (I suppose it is very telling that 9 times out of 10, I accidentally type "Hackson" before correcting it. It IS an accident, at least consciously. But ah, I know my subconscious, and accidents like these are seldom really accidents...). What it confirmed to me was that he and his co-writers were intent on making LotR "their own," and they decided to change the story from a cooperative effort among many peoples to a focus on the rising "world of Men." Once we leave Lothlorien in their version of the story, other races are there to provide comic relief (Gimli) or spiffy extra-cool action (Legolas -- and I suspect that if the fan girls hadn't panted over Orlando Bloom, his role would have been downplayed). The point at which it became most painfully obvious to me that they didn't get it was the scene where Gandalf is supposedly comforting Pippin about death -- quoting Frodo's dream of Valinor, and equating it with the passage from life to the afterlife. Funny that Gandalf doesn't even recognize the description of the place he came from, and will go back to!

Oh, I shouldn't go on, my heartburn will never forgive me. But I will say that I'm not speaking as a lover of the books who despised the films from the start. I actually thought they made a reasonably good beginning in FotR (yes, I had some issues with it, but I did see promise in that film), which took a steep nosedive with (if not before) the warg-rider battle in TTT. At that point, it appeared to me that, the fan base for the movies having been established, Jackson and crew stopped making movies for the fans of Tolkien, and began making movies for fans of their own. Very sad. I hate it when something that begins well ends badly. And that bit with the Witch King and cowering Gandalf... cripes, you gave all the poor wizard's best lines to other people, couldn't you at least let him have his moment of glory standing fast at the gate...???

sigh

alatar · 08-27-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And that bit with the Witch King and cowering Gandalf... cripes, you gave all the poor wizard's best lines to other people, couldn't you at least let him have his moment of glory standing fast at the gate...???

Note that I've already written everything that can be written about this topic thrice...and yet I have to say it once again.

If only PJ had put a grin on the prone Gandalf's face, the same wizard that went boot-to-toe with a balrog, all would have been forgiven and forgotten.

I still think that George Lucas is somewhere hiding in the shadows behind all of this...

08-27-2009, 08:11 AM	#6
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Shock didn't even begin to describe my reaction to that scene in Jackson's movie (I suppose it is very telling that 9 times out of 10, I accidentally type "Hackson" before correcting it. It IS an accident, at least consciously. But ah, I know my subconscious, and accidents like these are seldom really accidents...). What it confirmed to me was that he and his co-writers were intent on making LotR "their own," and they decided to change the story from a cooperative effort among many peoples to a focus on the rising "world of Men." Once we leave Lothlorien in their version of the story, other races are there to provide comic relief (Gimli) or spiffy extra-cool action (Legolas -- and I suspect that if the fan girls hadn't panted over Orlando Bloom, his role would have been downplayed). The point at which it became most painfully obvious to me that they didn't get it was the scene where Gandalf is supposedly comforting Pippin about death -- quoting Frodo's dream of Valinor, and equating it with the passage from life to the afterlife. Funny that Gandalf doesn't even recognize the description of the place he came from, and will go back to! Oh, I shouldn't go on, my heartburn will never forgive me. But I will say that I'm not speaking as a lover of the books who despised the films from the start. I actually thought they made a reasonably good beginning in FotR (yes, I had some issues with it, but I did see promise in that film), which took a steep nosedive with (if not before) the warg-rider battle in TTT. At that point, it appeared to me that, the fan base for the movies having been established, Jackson and crew stopped making movies for the fans of Tolkien, and began making movies for fans of their own. Very sad. I hate it when something that begins well ends badly. And that bit with the Witch King and cowering Gandalf... cripes, you gave all the poor wizard's best lines to other people, couldn't you at least let him have his moment of glory standing fast at the gate...??? sigh __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

08-26-2009, 01:03 PM	#3
Keyan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 12	I just found this thread today..and I'm sure it will open up more old wounds, but anyway, I felt I wanted to put in my 2 cents: When I first saw this scene, I was shocked. I felt that its inclusion showed that PJ didn't truly understand Tolkien, or the characters, at all. There is some other evidence of this, or at least of just bad use of language (which is about as anti-Tolkien as you can get), but I digress... After thinking about the scene more, I think the biggest problem is the complete and somewhat over the top fear that Gandalf displays. He would not be afraid, he had even "died" already, and knew if he died it would not be his true end, as he explains to Pippin with the "green land under a swift sunrise" line earlier. In the appendices this scene is actually addressed, and IIRC (it's been a while) I think PJ even says he knew it would get a mixed reaction, but it was included to show that basically the age of the old powers was waning, and that Men alone would be able to save Middle earth. The arrival of the Rohirrim is designed to highlight that point. Given this context, the scene makes more sense...I still just don't like how it was played out. As far as the "Aragorn beating him with some burning sticks" type comments, I feel that it's pretty well established that the Black Riders are less powerful than the fully equipped Nazgul that come later. To me, it seems that their power grows along with the power of their Master, as they are shadows of his power and are bound to it. As the Ring gets heavier, and Sauron's power and influence increase, so does the power of the Nine, which would explain their relative weakness earlier in the story vs their power near the end. Anyway, it seems that there is a very intelligent and thoughtful group here, I hope to participate some in other areas.