Ulmo and the Ring War

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This topic is far more interesting than yet another "Who would win in a fight between...?" thread.

Indeed

That being said, I now wonder about his role as water diety and the Sea of Nurnen.

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I have often wondered if the Sea of Núrnen wasn't Tolkien's nod to the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea at least has the River Jordan feeding into it, but if I'm not mistaken, it is believed that the Biblical cities of Sodom and Gammorah were located near its shores (possibly to explain its incredibly high salinity, which does not support much in the way of anything but some microbial life). There's just something there that feels similar, at least to me. I could see Sauron cutting off all tributaries to Mordor's inland sea to prevent Ulmo from having any way of "spying" on him, or "whispering" to his slaves and vassals.

It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear. I grant you, Tolkien admitted that the whole idea of evil creatures being repelled by water was difficult to sustain (the Anduin would provide a pretty secure barrier to them, if that were the case), but if one considers untainted water as a connection to Ulmo, it might work. Though I suspect Tolkien either didn't care for that notion or it didn't occur to him, since he didn't use it.

And about the eagles: at least during the time of The Hobbit and LotR, every instance I can recall that involves the eagles also somehow involves Gandalf. Even the remaining Fellowship seeing an eagle flying high up during their journey down the Anduin happened because Gandalf asked Gwaihir to scout ahead for him. Though I don't believe he actively summons the eagles -- if that were the case, why would he have spent so long a time stranded atop Orthanc? -- I tend to think that sometimes he does (as before the Black Gates) and the rest of the time, "fortune," probably in the form a nudge from Manwe, sends them where his servant needs them. I might be forgetting some appearance of the Third Age eagles in which Gandalf is nowhere on or behind the scenes, but I can't recall such an instance, if there is one.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear.

I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water:

All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge- UT, the Hunt for the Ring

Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water: Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming

I think this was not necessarily about that his power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think this was not necessarily about that [the Witch-King's] power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").

Hmm... But doesn't this reasoning imply that he did fear water, but was able to overcome his fear either by rational reasoning or by cheer courage? But the other nazgul were able to overcome their fear as well - maybe not so readily, but still they could do it. Two of the nazgul followed the WK over the Ford - and we know from RC that one of them was Khamul, who was rather prone to typical nazgul phobias.
So, to me the quote from UT: "All save the WK feared water", seems to set him more apart. I think maybe he didn't feel any aversion to it at all.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Considering that his main weapon is fear, you might have something there...

Well, but fear was the main weapon of all the Nine. I would say that the WK had more other weapons than his fellows.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

I agree, and while I can't guess the motives of a fictional deity, I would think that Sauron's desecration of the Sea of Nurnen (not exactly an insignificant body of water) would earn him Ulmo's absolute hatred. Hence, his more active role in opposing Sauron.