The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2008, 08:12 AM   #1
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel View Post
It also makes me wonder about the Nazgul and their aversion to water. While it smacks of the old tale about witches and vampires and their inability to cross flowing water, it differs in that the Nazgul can cross them; they just don't like to. I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear.
I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water:
Quote:
All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge- UT, the Hunt for the Ring
Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2008, 03:08 PM   #2
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.Legate of Amon Lanc is spying on the Black Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
I think the last answer is the right one: Nazgul felt the lingering traces of Ulmo's power in flowing water and feared it.

Note that the Witch-King didn't fear water: Now, why didn't the WK fear water?

He was undoubtedly a powerful sorceror, a witch, so, if the reason were simply that "witches can't cross water" as in old tales, then he would be more affected than the others, not less so.

It is unlikely that the WK wouldn't feel as much "aversion to something so inherently clean and pure" as his fellows did.

So - we are left with Ulmo's powers. The WK was clearly the most powerful of the Nine, and the power of Ulmo was almost gone from the waters of ME. The Witch-King was simply powerful enough to disregard what was left of old Ulmo to enjoy swimming
I think this was not necessarily about that his power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008, 04:29 AM   #3
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
I think this was not necessarily about that [the Witch-King's] power would be powerful enough to overcome the "traces of Ulmo". I think this was merely a kind of psychological effect, so to say. You say it yourself: He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others ("Other people and even Orcs usually go into the water and nothing happens. The chance is 1:500000 that something happens. I'm going to be a little dizzy, but as soon as this is over, I will lie down for a few hours and then I'll be fit again. It has been proven that the effects of hydronausea pass in 3-5 days completely, and that it is not hazardous even after long exposure."), or he may simply have had more self-confidence ("The water's not gonna stop me in my unholy quest! Forwaaards!").
Hmm... But doesn't this reasoning imply that he did fear water, but was able to overcome his fear either by rational reasoning or by cheer courage? But the other nazgul were able to overcome their fear as well - maybe not so readily, but still they could do it. Two of the nazgul followed the WK over the Ford - and we know from RC that one of them was Khamul, who was rather prone to typical nazgul phobias.
So, to me the quote from UT: "All save the WK feared water", seems to set him more apart. I think maybe he didn't feel any aversion to it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eönwë
Considering that his main weapon is fear, you might have something there...
Well, but fear was the main weapon of all the Nine. I would say that the WK had more other weapons than his fellows.
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.