A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Groin Redbeard]

I'll wait for Nogrod to post before I move on to the next chapter since we still have a disscussion going on about Three Is Company.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

No, he's definitely one of the Noldor. If you recall, he introduces himself as Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod and an Exile. Also, the narrator and Frodo note a few times that Gildor's company are High Elves (mentioning the name of Elbereth and speaking Quenya and all that).

I think Gildor's merriness and even occasional silliness is rather refreshing after all the proud and serious Noldorin lords. (Don't get me wrong though, they are one of my favourites nevertheless. ) I think he actually illustrates rather well the two sides of how the Elves seem to mortals: the tra-lal-lal-ly side and the noble and serious side. Almost all other Elves in Tolkien's writing are just either of these types but Gildor is a healthy (and credibly written!) mixture of them both. I guess that's why I like him so much.

[Thinlómien]

This thread is obviously in need of a new topic, and I finished reading the next chapter yesterday, so let's get this going...

You won't get a detailed and thoughtful kick-off from me because I'm simply unable to make those , but I will say a few things about this chapter.

When this chapter was last discussed (here), many people seemed to talk about this as a cheerful and funny chapter. However, like I said back then, this has always been a rather scary chapter for me. Here's what I said about the topic when it was discussed in February:

Originally Posted by me on the CbC thread for this chapter

I mean, look at these quotes:

Every time I read them, they just make a chill run down my spine. They must be among the creepiest passages in the whole book.

Also, the episode of Merry The Black Rider is very scary. I remember when my father read LotR aloud to me and my little sister when we were about 6 and 4 years old and that passage was simply horror. I was sure the Black Riders had finally found them and I was so relieved when it turned out that the rider was Merry. The passage is very impressive - especially as when something is read aloud to you, you can't even accidentally see the next phrases that reveal the truth.

So, which one is this chapter for you? Scary or funny? Or maybe both? And why do you think so?

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere? (I've never heard it anywhere else, which of course doesn't mean anything since I'm not a native speaker... But I haven't heard the Finnish equivalent of it either.)

We also meet farmer Maggot in this chapter. He seems to be one of those characters everybody likes. I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't like him.

Speaking of him, his land is called Bamfurlong. I've never paid it any attention to it before, but now it strikes me as weird. It doesn't sound very Hobbitish and as a word, it doesn't make any sense to me. Does anyone know where the name comes from or what does it mean? As soon as I get home, I'm going to see how it's translated in the Finnish version...

Latsly, I've always liked the beginning of this chapter and the thoughtful dialogue. This time, I was especially touched by Sam's words:

"Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."

Quite beautifully said, isn't it?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I'm severely allergic to mushrooms, so I guess I'd fall into the "scared" camp.

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange. Perhaps he is a reflection of "country" versus "town" hobbits -- and if so, he may well be an indication that the true mettle of hobbits lies not with its citified gentry, but with its common farmers, who love the land so well, they will rise up to defend it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only chiming in with a short comment...

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange.

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

And as for this chapter being funny or scary, I gave some grounds on that in the thread quoted during the first reading - let me just say here that I do not find it that scary, since this is still the Shire, and it is friendly and... it is just like here now. (I said even about the chapter before that I would actually enjoy the night walk with the Hobbits, even with the Black Riders. It's great!)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

Oh, certainly, you find regional prejudices, even within some cities. A very normal situation. But Maggot does seem, to me at least, a little more willing to do what Big Folk don't seem to think hobbits in general will do, that being stand up to protect himself and his land rather than run and hide and let someone else do it. Which, no doubt, is a Big People prejudice toward Hobbits, who feel a need to protect (or exploit) them because they think they're all afraid of the world. Maggot rather plainly isn't; he didn't need to be put into much of a pinch before he showed what was in him.

[alatar]

Okay, so I just want to show that I'm not crazy. Anyway, here are direct quotes from "Three is Company" that made me think that 'sniffing' was to be a big deal (and note the emphasis seen is from the original text - not added):

• From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road.

• 'I can't say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me;

• 'What about the smelling, sir?' said Sam.

• 'Your talk of sniffing riders with invisible noses has unsettled me.'

• 'Very well!' said Pippin. 'But don't forget the sniffing!'

• Frodo thought he heard the sound of snuffling.

We get more in 'A Short Cut to Mushrooms'. And after all of this, the explanation we learn is (to jump ahead to the chapter "A Knife in the Dark'):

Originally Posted by Strider on Weathertop

And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.

Almost as anticlimatic as this post.

[Boromir88]

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere?~Lommy

Hmm interesting, and of course this is also where we get Frodo's retort:

"That settles it!"..."Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones."

And we know Tolkien certainly loved spending time at the pub with his fellow Inklings.

[Mister Underhill]

"Haste makes waste," we often say here, which amounts to the same.

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, so I just want to show that I'm not crazy. Anyway, here are direct quotes from "Three is Company" that made me think that 'sniffing' was to be a big deal... [snip]

Almost as anticlimatic as this post.

I have a feeling this might be a criticism born of over-familiarity.

Try to think back to before you knew all there was to know about the Nazgûl (admittedly not much, relatively speaking, but still). The sniffing and snuffling, I think, is definitely an effective way to signal that these Riders are not human, that there's something weird (in all senses of that word) about them. Also it provides a nice bit of suspense when Frodo realizes that although he is out of sight, he is not effectively hidden from his pursuer -- it's only luck (Providence?... deus ex machina?... here we go...) that saves him.

We're a little jaded about supernatural creatures nowadays. You can't throw a stone into popular culture without hitting one. I think all that business about them not seeing the world of light as we do, but they can see through their horses' eyes and use men and other creatures as spies is pretty nifty. Put it in the context of the mid-50's and it's even less anticlimactic.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere? (I've never heard it anywhere else, which of course doesn't mean anything since I'm not a native speaker... But I haven't heard the Finnish equivalent of it either.)

In Swedish we have the saying genvägar är senvägar which pretty much has the same meaning as "Short cuts make long delays" with an even better ring to it - but you would know that, wouldn't you?

I'm going to check how it's translated into Swedish. Yes, it's "genvägar kan bli senvägar". I don't know if the good Prof has an interest in Swedish and Swedish sayings and picked it up from there or if he just made it up.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

:
So, which one is this chapter for you? Scary or funny? Or maybe both? And why do you think so?

Definitely a scary chapter with that signal the Nazgul sends out and let's not forget the climatic trip to the ferry with farmer Maggot.

We also meet farmer Maggot in this chapter. He seems to be one of those characters everybody likes. I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't like him.

Indeed, farmer Maggot is one of those characters that anyone can relate to no matter what country he/she may live in. He reminds me of a roughneck neighbor we used to have, he to kept ferocious dogs that everyone was afraid of, but he was still a capitol fellow once you got to know him.

[skip spence]

I sometimes wonder whether JRRT had a passion for mushrooms matching that of the Hobbits. I would say so or else he wouldn't have dedicated a whole chapter to this culinary treat. Whereas I can't read "Three Is Company" without yearning for a cross country-walk and I can't read "A Short-Cut To Mushroms" without desiring a heap of butter-fried mushrooms and perhaps a vintage Old Vineyards to wash it down with.

Mmmmmmmmm, Mushrooms. *drools*

[Groin Redbeard]

I'm afraid that I don't have much to say for this chapter other than it was a creative way of getting Merry and Pippin back with Frodo.

Here is another point where we see that Hobbit nature come out in our four heroes. It is almost startling how loyal they are to Frodo after what Pippin and Sam had gone through with the Black Riders and all, yet still braver of them to dare plan of going into the Old Forest (I have an analysis on that but I'll save it for the next chapter).

Besides that I'm afraid I don't have much to say, other than Tolkien writes one of the best baths songs I've ever heard in this chapter.