Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Diamond18]

The next morning at the Remote Romantic Retreat dawned sunny and clear. A perfect day for strolling through the garden, lounging on the beach, and getting to know the other singles. But, alas, such leisurely activities were not to be on the agenda for this day.

Two less Lonely Heart Clubmembers came down to the breakfast table that morning. Legate and Lalaith where each absent. They were found, later, each in their separate bedrooms, alone and dead in their lonely beds. Both had been stabbed through the heart, and their blood ran red, staining the sheets.

Let the paranoia commence.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Kitanna
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eönwë
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)

[Rikae]

Two deaths, and no mention of a ranger save. Can we hope that we only have two lover pairs among us? Two pairs against each other, as well as the rest of the village, would make for an unbalanced game, though.

As for Legate and Lalaith, the first thought that comes to my mind is that both look like classic wolf-kills - players who weren't much suspected, thus unlikely to be lynched, and who leave little trail... maybe there's more to it I'm missing, though.

Now, Sally - I'll have you know, dearie, I don't much appreciate what I see as attempts to intimidate and pressure me into conformity! I vote as I please, thank you very much, and I find the artificial narrowing of the field to the first few people with multiple votes a suspicious, or at least dangerous, move.
In this game, time zones are obviously a major factor. Americans (although not so much those of us on the east coast) are going to find it far easier to be around at the deadline. I don't think that means that we can suppose there is an evil conspiracy among Americans to vote without the rest of the village's input.
(If there is, you're in on it! )
I don't find you suspicious just yet, love - only a bit misguided. Shasta may well be buttering me up - he seems to be following my suspicions a bit.
Well, I suppose we won't see much activity here until after I've gone to bed (even though I'm staying up far too late already for #$@# midterms...) - good night, USA, good morning, Europe, play nice and all that.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Two deaths, and no mention of a ranger save. Can we hope that we only have two lover pairs among us? Two pairs against each other, as well as the rest of the village, would make for an unbalanced game, though.

As for Legate and Lalaith, the first thought that comes to my mind is that both look like classic wolf-kills - players who weren't much suspected, thus unlikely to be lynched, and who leave little trail... maybe there's more to it I'm missing, though.

Now, Sally - I'll have you know, dearie, I don't much appreciate what I see as attempts to intimidate and pressure me into conformity! I vote as I please, thank you very much, and I find the artificial narrowing of the field to the first few people with multiple votes a suspicious, or at least dangerous, move.
In this game, time zones are obviously a major factor. Americans (although not so much those of us on the east coast) are going to find it far easier to be around at the deadline. I don't think that means that we can suppose there is an evil conspiracy among Americans to vote without the rest of the village's input.
(If there is, you're in on it! )
I don't find you suspicious just yet, love - only a bit misguided. Shasta may well be buttering me up - he seems to be following my suspicions a bit.
Well, I suppose we won't see much activity here until after I've gone to bed (even though I'm staying up far too late already for #$@# midterms...) - good night, USA, good morning, Europe, play nice and all that.

Can't stay and chat but I had to tell you. Your post just made my day. (Granted it's 1:30 in the morning so I haven't done much yet, but it amused me. How are you so perky at this time of night?)


Sorry. Off to write a paper, gorrammit. Back when I'm awake.


P.S. Lallie and Legate, especially the former. Bwah?


Discuss amongst yourselves!


EDIT: X'd with Cabbie. Mehbe. I'm not sure; I should have been paying more attention.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

How are you so perky at this time of night?)

Coffee.
*yawn*

Originally Posted by Brinn

Legate I'm more curious about. He had the second most amount of posts and was getting plenty of attention...so why kill him?

An awful lot of the attention he was getting seemed to run along the lines of "Legate is smart and wise and all-good and all-knowing and we should bow down and worship him in grovelling admiration." as far as I could see.
Or, for another possibility, perhaps the lovers are hopeless romantics who thought he couldn't stand to live without Lommy?

Originally Posted by Mac

I think Rikae is too quick to discard the possibility that anything useful can be learned from Lalaith's and Legate's deaths. I will have a look at them later today.

Probably true, studmuffin,, but that's all I was able to come up with - not to mention I generally don't believe a lot can be learned from kills.

I suppose it is possible we have three sets of lovers, and two picked the same person. A wacky idea suggested to me by the Venus scenario in the narration also was that the number of lover pairs might be increasing, somehow, and we could expect greater carnage in the nights to come. Now, that would be devilish - if that's not what Di's doing, perhaps I'll try it someday myself...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I am slightly wary (but not suspicious) of Rikae (her reasons for mistrusting Mac didn't have much by way of a foundation), Aganzir (too excited), Lommy (she always bears watching, but I have little say beyond that).

You have to understand the way I am, mein Herr
A tiger is a tiger, not a lamb, mein Herr

Gollum, do elaborate to me how I am too excited.
Someone said on day 1 that I seemed jumpy and then you just came and repeated it. When I asked for reasons, you listed everything I had done by then; speaks much, accuses people &c...
And now, no real suspects, but you're slightly wary of people for poor reasons. Although I find Rikae suspicious myself, I think her reasons for mistrusting Mac were good enough. Besides just a moment earlier you had said you didn't understand why she was voted.
I myself can't see me as too excited. You, of course, have never played with me and don't know how I am, and therefore you should have no way of knowing if I'm excited or not. Was that the best you could come up with? Even if the person you were referring to as too excited was my top suspect, it wouldn't add anything to my suspicions of her. Sorry if I sound aggressive but that's the most stupid reason I have ever been suspected with.
Also you're wary of Lommy because she always bears watching?
It looks like you were just trying to go with the flow and pick up people you thought could be suspected later on. With weak grounds.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Agan's threat to go along, without an actual vote, looks perhaps worse. (It seems she's trying to keep things moving in that direction while avoiding any commitment herself).

It was not a threat, I was thinking aloud. I thought I said I'd prefer voting Mac but I could vote for you, too, since you already had votes so there would even be a chance I could contribute to the lynching of one of my main suspects although I had to vote so early. I changed my mind several times while time passed, but for the life in me I just can't see what's so suspicious in telling who I could possibly vote.

Originally Posted by Rikae

And, Agan, what "points"?

Hmm, I see that in the process of writing my thoughts down, they were reduced only to the following. In my opinion they were still a valid enough reason for suspicion, though.

However, Rikae's certainty that Mac has a role because she hasn't is strange. The point that Di wouldn't make them both ordos is just bad. There's a certain likelihood that two good players get a special role, but there are many others than Mac and Rikae as well - and who knows if the roles were selected randomly? In any case, it definitely isn't a point I would use against somebody, and to me it seems Rikae should know better, too. I don't find it that surprising that Lommy thought her accusations of Mac were a joke.

Originally Posted by Shasta

This kind of screams baddie to me, to be honest. :/

Then get earplugs.

Originally Posted by Rikae

About the point #2 - half serious. It is something that I thought about (not because of our strength as players, but because mods seems to love setting us against each other), but I didn't expect anyone else to take it seriously - except possibly Mac himself: I was interested in his reaction.

I am definitely not the best person to complain about half serious suspicions. Still, it would be so easy for a wolf to throw around random suspicion, get a great many different reactions from people and then say she was just testing the ice. "I didn't except anyone else to take it seriously" is in itself a veiled accusation against people who actually did.

Originally Posted by sally

A couple votes that bother me.

Gwath-->Fea. His reason is listed "because I disagree with her about Mac". Seriously? You don't agree with her so she's a wolf? Seems like fuzzy (aka furry) logic to me.

Rikae-->Agan. Just because it's spreading out the votes even more, and especially this close to the deadline. Trying to complicate things even more right before Sunset is just not cool, my dear.

It somewhat bothers me that those votes bother you. Of course I don't like being voted, especially if I'm not around to defend myself (not that Rikae or Shasta had any accusations against which I should have defended myself at that point, though), but (and I might be in the minority in this one, also) I think everybody should vote the person they suspect the most, no matter if it's close to the deadline or spreads out the votes. From Gwath I want to see more before judging him.

As for the kills, there's one thing I found worth noticing - they both were killed the same way (stabbed through the heart). I don't know if there's a team or if both/all pairs just decided to kill their victims like that, and I'm not going to speculate on it today, either. I just felt the need to point it out.

I wouldn't find it surprising if Legate was killed because of being suspected to be a lover. However, since we don't know how the killers work, I think we should be traditional and concentrate more on what the dead said than what they were possibly thought to be.

By the way, I always suspect Mac and Rikae. Always.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*yawns*
...need coffee...

I wanted to stick my head in and say the following about In Game:

"While we don't know anything for certain, last night was highly beneficial in that some things are at least partially revealed to us which weren't before. For the number-of-Lover-pairs question, I'm willing to assume two pairs due simply to the low odds of multiple baddies picking the same kill on a Night One out of an almost full village."

and
more importantly, Out of Game:

"My Wednesdays have turned into a joke so you're unlikely to see me for the next twelve hours since I barely have time to eat much less play online. Do yourselves a favor and don't kill me while I'm gone."

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

*yawns*
...need coffee...

I wanted to stick my head in and say the following about In Game:

"While we don't know anything for certain, last night was highly beneficial in that some things are at least partially revealed to us which weren't before. For the number-of-Lover-pairs question, I'm willing to assume two pairs due simply to the low odds of multiple baddies picking the same kill on a Night One out of an almost full village."

and
more importantly, Out of Game:

"My Wednesdays have turned into a joke so you're unlikely to see me for the next twelve hours since I barely have time to eat much less play online. Do yourselves a favor and don't kill me while I'm gone."

*seconds the yawning* You know, I love college, I really do. It's just the classes and assignments that I hate.



From Agan's last post, because it caught my eye. (How sad is it that I just scanned through for now and caught bits where people were talking to me. Heh I'll go back and look at everything again later.) I'm glad you don't mind getting voted, dearie -I'll remember it closer to deadline - but it just struck me as odd not that the votes came that close to deadline, but that they introduced new candidates so close to deadline. Mostly it's the fact that it could have easily turned into a last-minute bandwagon and I hate those (for the most part). I'm sorry, I should have made that a bit more clear.


Anyway, final touches on paper. Not a morning person, me. Blah.


P.S. Oh, the theory that maybe Legate was killed because someone thought he was a lover? Very possible. The gifted theory's plausible too. I would think, though, that lovers (if there are more than one team) would want to get rid of their competition first (because then they'd be safe during the Nights) but at the same time I know that -hypothetically, o'course- if I was a wolf I would almost rather get rid of a seer than a fellow baddie. I don't know. I'm going to stop babbling. Sorry.

[Aganzir]

Lalaith plays so seldom that it would be quite evil to pick her as a random kill (which doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, though. It just seems more likely that there's some actual reason).

Her opinions on people from yesterday:
Innocentish: Nog, Mac, Brinn, and Eomer.
Didn't know what to think of: Gollum, Kitanna, and Greenie.
Didn't know what to think of, but bear watching: Lommy, Fea (the most suspicious of them, got even more slightly suspicious of her later on), and Rikae.
Weird: Legate.
Feels uncomfortable about: Groin (semi-analysis of a handful of players), sally (not sincere-looking), Eönwë (not sincere-looking).
Also wonders if I want to get lynched or dreamed of for some purpose of my own (no, I don't).

Then there are her last two posts which I rather quote here (only the important parts, though) than try to sum up.

Originally Posted by Lal

I want to know what Legate's up to, his posts feel so odd, they aren't making sense to me at all. I also want to know what Agan is up to and I am getting more worried about Fea.
Then there are Groin and Sally, who worried me earlier. (Eonwe too, although he is now worrying me less.)

Originally Posted by Lal

All right, to be clearer: my suspicions are often directed at those who I feel are being confusing, possibly deliberately so, and for a purpose. Is that better?

Now I don't know what to make of her attitude towards Legate. Was he attempted to frame (which failed when he got killed, too), is it a coincidence that they both were killed, do the baddies have a team? Dunno. It's also possible that whoever killed her wanted it to make look bad on me, but I find it less likely since to me it looks more like she was just curious of me rather than actually suspicious. It could also point at either Fea being a baddie and/or someone trying to frame her. Or Groin and sally, maybe even Eönwë. At least to me it isn't that difficult to think so since I suspect them all (with the exception of Eönwë) more or less. But still, you can never know if someone's death points at someone's guilt or a framing attempt.

I skimmed through Lal's posts but couldn't see anything that might have been interpreted as giftedness or evil intents. However, if she got something right, she might have been killed preventively - just in case she was the seer.

I wonder why I do this so often although it never helps me to find reasons why somebody could have been killed. However, I'm going to keep my eye on Fea, Groin and sally anyway.

By the way, just a thought - in a village of 19, how likely is it that there are four baddies, especially as it's possible to kill two for the price of one?

I can say it straight that although I have the energy to post much, I don't have the energy to go through Legate's posts and analyse the causes of his death. That's what one gets for being a flood-poster.

Okay I'm probably off for a while now.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Or, for another possibility, perhaps the lovers are hopeless romantics who thought he couldn't stand to live without Lommy?

Rikae I love you! Let's get married!

I'll be around still for a while because Lommy came online on MSN and apparently wants to talk to me in the lack of some better company.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agan, how do you keep a wave upon the sand?

Popping in as I'm home sick and didn't go to class today. A thought occurred to me last night; what if we're facing two trios of lovers? That makes more sense - numbers-wise, anyway - than two pairs (four baddies? Really?).

[Macalaure]

I just looked at Legate and Lalaith and found... nothing. Lalaith focussed on Legate and Legate focussed mostly on me, Groin, and Kitanna, but he didn't go after either of them in a way that would have really put them into danger. The people who suspected Legate most are either dead or identical to me. The list of people who mentioned being unsure of him is too long to be helpful.

Eh, I thought I'd come up with more, but I can't think today...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

A thought occurred to me last night; what if we're facing two trios of lovers? That makes more sense - numbers-wise, anyway - than two pairs (four baddies? Really?).

Two trios? I can't help but think that's the most crackpot scheme I've ever heard and this coming from me, who specializes in scheming of the crackpot variety.

Where'd the idea of three come from, and what in the world makes you think it makes sense?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Agan, how do you keep a wave upon the sand?

Do you mean I'm confusing? A riddle? I don't listen to all you say?

As for Kitanna, I don't think her defense of Mac is that suspicious. I suspect Mac, but I found also those not-entirely-joking suspicions of Rikae's odd and can understand someone else did, too. Is it not possible to defend anyone in this game without being branded a lover?

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Rikae

An awful lot of the attention he was getting seemed to run along the lines of "Legate is smart and wise and all-good and all-knowing and we should bow down and worship him in grovelling admiration." as far as I could see.

Yet he managed to gather enough suspicion to receive two votes...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Yet he managed to gather enough suspicion to receive two votes...

That's right... silly me. I suppose that's good enough reason to assume he may have been suspected as a rival baddie (for some reason, he didn't seem especially suspected to me).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rikae

That's right... silly me. I suppose that's good enough reason to assume he may have been suspected as a rival baddie (for some reason, he didn't seem especially suspected to me).

Actually, I don't think he was suspected that much. Eönwë said his vote was random whereas Lalaith thought he was weird and wanted to know what he was up to. He was generally considered quite innocent.

As for Eönwë, I'd really like to hear more from him, not just random comments and vote counts. Of us alive, he has the second most posts and I haven't been able to form an opinion of him at all.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

A wacky idea suggested to me by the Venus scenario in the narration also was that the number of lover pairs might be increasing, somehow, and we could expect greater carnage in the nights to come.

Now that would be scary.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If the seer dreams of you, you might still have a plenty of time to kill her since she probably doesn't come out after finding just one baddie. However, if another team chooses to kill you, you're dead that very night. If I was a baddie, I'd much rather get rid of the other baddies before throwing wild guesses about who the seer could be.

As well as this, the seer also has a larger chance of finding the other baddies, and getting them lynched, so this also helps the lovers (as well as the rest of the village, obviously). It just makes it easier fir them.

Still reading this page...

[Kitanna]

Moving on to Eomer...
Appears suddenly and votes Rikae after stating:

Well, I'm all for a bit more substance.

Alright. I'll taker this as a time issue.

Most of his first post today was about possible teams of werelovers given two dead in the night, nothing evil there. And then at the end of his post:

As for my vote yesterday, Rikae got it spot on. Pot and stirring. That's all.

Indicating his vote was nothing more than stirring things up. In which case it would be useless to ask why Rikae because it could have been anyone. His other posts really didn't stand to accuse anyone though he commented on my first post of the day being little more than a conformity post. Which leads me to believe I shouldn't speak when under time constraints.

His next post attacks my post once more, showing me I'm better off not speaking.

Kitanna always gets the last laugh. At least some of you should know that by now. Maybe it's because of that dodgy post earlier today; maybe it's just because she's a survivor; maybe it's because she has a history of slaying an entire village with her lover (who would that have been... ). All these are exceptionally valid reasons with little to no need of supportive evidence.

Does my one post really have that big of an effect. And surprise, surprise Eomer voted for me. I'm actually confused as to why Eomer has attacked me in such a way. It's not even that he brings me to the village's attentions, I'm just confused he mentioned no one else. That doesn't seem like Eomer to me. But what do I know?

Originally Posted by Eomer

So... Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I'm confused. Are you and Kitanna lovers? And if so, why would you betray her? Doesn't seem very sportsmanlike.

You can't be bitter about our victory as lovers in the wizards game can you Eomer?

[Kitanna]

To my last suspect, Rikae. I'd like to follow up how I felt yesterday. As I said I felt uncomfortable with her Mac accusation. I could tell it was a joke, but the way she shamelessly put out herself as an innocent. So I'd like to look long and hard at Rikae to see if my uneasiness about her lessens or grows.

First post is the one that made my uncomfortable to begin with. No need to restate myself. Next post is a response to some things Mac had said.
Defends Mac with:

Hmm...
just wanted to add, "jumpiness" is a very easy accusation to use against Mac, since he tends to respond that way regardless of his role. Not saying he's not suspicious, but since we almost certainly have baddies going after each other in this game...

Not highly suspicious given he original accusations were mostly made in jest.

Next she comments on Sally's questions. Says they are employed despite guilt or innocence, sort of in the same way Mac's jumpiness is used I guess. Doesn't really accuse sally.

Second - Sally's rhetorical questions aren't very helpful (I mean, seriously, who's going to suspect Legate for having a "nice little list"?), but seem to be something she uses fairly often, baddie or innocent.

Bolds something she found interesting with one of Agan's posts. Doesn't accuse here either.

Methinks Aganzir, Macalaure, and Lommy are all baddies of some sort.

Doesn't elaborate, but given the rest of her post she didn't to leave at that time.

Returns and comments that Eomer's vote was to stir the pot, but mine was nasty because it followed his immediately. Also comments about Agan's threat to vote for her as well. She doesn't mention Eonwe, though. He said he was going to vote for her for sure before Agan even mentioned possibly voting for Rikae. She also still finds Mac suspicious, but admits to not wanting to for him that day.

She votes for Agan. Don't see anything too suspicious with that vote.

First post of today doesn't strike me as much. Responds to Groin and alerts us to her presence.

Her most recent post brings up the idea perhaps Eomer thought her gifted. But also finds Eomer's behavior strange.

Eomer's behavior is very strange, in that it looks like the old wolf-trap technique of casting a random vote and then turning on the person who follows it, except that the person in question, cross-voted.

Has mild suspicions towards Brinn, I expect something will follow later.

Rikae's first post still has me wondering.

Di wouldn't make both Mac and I ordos. Ergo, he has a role, and, judging by point #1, that role is an evil one.
I realize this point doesn't do anyone any good until I'm dead, but that shouldn't take long when Mac is evil.

However, nothing else she has said really worries me about her and one little jest post (no matter how sinister I feel it may be) is not enough for me to condemn someone as a baddy. For right now I feel better about Rikae, she seems sound and responsible.

Edit: I see Rikae went a looked back on Brinn and found whatever she was worried about was wrong. Also refers to Groin as too lazy to be a bad guy.

[Rikae]

Quick correction:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Her most recent post brings up the idea perhaps Eomer thought her gifted. But also finds Eomer's behavior strange.

Perhaps Eonwe thought I was gifted; Eomer is strange.

[McCaber]

Sorry about Day 1, folks. Apparently things happen when I'm not paying attention.

And I missed six whole pages of discussion. Great.

I didn't glean too much from a quick first readthrough. Basically that Aganzir, Lommy, Mac,and Rikae talked a lot and suspected each other, with fatal results for Lommy.

Anyway, time to think, react, talk, and listen.

[McCaber]

So I still really don't have a lot to say. I'm getting sort of an innocent reading from Aganzir. She's posted a lot and hasn't contradicted herself much from what I saw. She's been argumentive but everyone is in werewolves. Verdict: almost not guilty.

And that's the first half of the day.

EDIT: crossed with Mac

[Nogrod]

Oh Mac, you're making me feel like back at home after a few games in some strange land of paranoia where you weren't after me all the time...

On a bit more serious note, this thing where you relate to my thoughts of there being a different mindset with those who killed Lalaith vs. those who killed Legate:

Originally Posted by Legate

I'm terribly sorry, but this does sound like a wolf whose mind is a bit too much taken by the implications of an apparently different strategy of the opposing team on the thread.

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

So what to make of your try-out? Just back to normal "Mac will suspect Nogrod whatever the posting" or trying to see whether you could turn this into a convenient lynch-option?


But I think you raise an important point to the fore.

I have been thinking about Sally - and what Mac said links to my thoughts on Sally.

I already felt yesterDay a bit uneasy with Sally's kind of - how should one describe it - conscious, or situation-oriented posting. What I mean is that yes there was that normallish Sally-banter and the jokes and all but somehow it felt she was more conscious of the situation we had in hand than she normally is. Or at least she doesn't normally show it.

Then came this:

Originally Posted by Sally toDay

I would think, though, that lovers (if there are more than one team) would want to get rid of their competition first (because then they'd be safe during the Nights

Now defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe" looks something that just doesn't fit my general impression of what an innocent Sally would think about - or speculate about. For it sure is true that if we have different teams against each other the lovers are scared to death every Night for their rivals (I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!). The problem is, did Sally just think of that and decided to use the word "safe" (which really nails down the thing those baddies are longing for) or does she actually feel that way now?

This is a question of the way one plays (so it's not like one way is better or more intelligent than the other - going deep into speculation about how the baddies would act may derange one's thinking a lot as well). You know I do it, Lommy does it, all those who remember Roa probably remember also her insistence in that being the most effective approach... But Sally hasn't belonged to that club of players as yet and I'm afraid I have to say her few posts do look a bit bothering to me, it feels like something behind the appearance is shining through her posting.

But I'm not sure if she's my best candidate toDay. I just decided to start with her as my suspicions on her are intertwined with Mac's points.

[Nogrod]

I just couldn't bear go on re-correcting my earlier post another time so I'll just make the meaning of this sentence clear here.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe"

This should of course read: defining the wolves viewpoint as wishing to be safe. Sorry.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

Ah but what if there was no other choice? Like if your lover was terribly afraid of Lalaith or Legate and thought s/he wouldn't survive another day if they were left alive? There are other people you like to play with, anyway, and do you rather kill one of them than die early and be unable to play with the rest?
I don't suspect you at least for now, but your defense doesn't convince me.

Originally Posted by Nog

I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!

Yeah I agree. And thanks to you, it was literally heart-stopping to me.

edit: xed with Nog

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

your defense doesn't convince me.

It was probably not even meant to convince in the traditional sense of the term - and it was probably not a traditional "defence" either. I just said that if someone thinks / believes I would kill Lalaith or Legate on Night1 then s/he just doesn't know me.

The point of course was that Mac knows me...

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Is it not possible to defend anyone in this game without being branded a lover?

I'm afraid not. If we have several independent teams - which is still a possibility; I mean there being more than two teams - any defence will be a bit suspicious. And that's the madness of a full lovers game as the lovers need to defend each other unlike a wolfteam which can sacrifice a member if needed. It's sad to be sure.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help someone you strongly feel is innocent from avoiding the gallows but you should then be ready to pay the price in form of suspicion.

Or were you trying to legitimise your future defence of your lover Agan?

EDIT: X'd with MAc... uh-oh... here we go again...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It was probably not even meant to convince in the traditional sense of the term - and it was probably not a traditional "defence" either. I just said that if someone thinks / believes I would kill Lalaith or Legate on Night1 then s/he just doesn't know me.

Then apparently I don't know you.
Of course everybody knows you rather didn't kill people you like to play with, but if you're on a lover team, there's also someone else but you and you should consider his/her opinions as well.
Just like I didn't like it when Mac said "if I was a wolf, I wouldn't behave this way," I don't like that.

Or were you trying to legitimise your future defence of your lover Agan?

As far as I remember, you were the only one who agreed to marry me. So watch out!

[A Little Green]

Fine, I'm back again. Firstly, about Mac and Nog's little debate.

Originally Posted by Mac

I don't like the way Nogrod labeled the kills "good". They were only good for the wolves, not the innocents, and the fact that "good" is the first thing Nogrod was able to think in regards to the kills appears like a Freudian wolf-slip. I mean, sure, that is done not unfrequently by others, but the way Nogrod emphasised it is strange. Then again, wouldn't a wolf be extra-careful not to formulate it this way?

First, there is this. I see nothing particularly suspicious in labeling kills "good", and calling it a Freudian wolf slip really strikes me as exaggeration.

But the weirdness gets more when we get to Nog's posts...

Originally Posted by Nog

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

Honestly, I don't like this sort of "I never play like that" -defence. After all, it would be a perfect wolf strategy to do something you constantly claim you never do. Also, just for the sake of being sporty, I'd like to see defences that are based (at least partly) on the current game, not the ones before it. Of course past games affect the current one, but they shouldn't dominate it.

Originally Posted by Nog

Now defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe" looks something that just doesn't fit my general impression of what an innocent Sally would think about - or speculate about. For it sure is true that if we have different teams against each other the lovers are scared to death every Night for their rivals (I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!). The problem is, did Sally just think of that and decided to use the word "safe" (which really nails down the thing those baddies are longing for) or does she actually feel that way now?

I think this looks pretty far-fetched, really - actually this argument is quite similar to Mac's point about Nog: both claim the accused's certain choice of words indicates to being a lover because it looks like thinking from the wrong viewpoint. I'm convinced by neither of these - I'm inclined to believe that an innocent villager is perfectly capable of changing his/her viewpoint to think like a baddie.

Then to other topics.

Originally Posted by Agan

I don't understand why Greenie thinks she should be worried of Legate if he plays as if he had nothing to worry about. She kind of contradicts herself there - if Legate was a baddie and had a lover, he would have to be worried about both his own and his lover's life.

I think you misunderstood me, honey. What I meant was that I am used to seeing him more serious, and this change to his usual style of playing is what really made me raise eyebrows. I know it's silly to base worries on what a player is usually like, but his behaviour struck me as a bit odd. Seemingly he just had an exceptionally good day or something.

Originally Posted by Agan

She said she didn't want to vote for Rikae because of how many had said they might vote her

This might be trivial, but I feel the need to correct this a bit - my reason for not voting Rikae was not the amount of votes or possible votes she had at that point, but rather that I didn't find her especially suspicious and didn't like the fact that there was only one voting candidate at that point. Here is what I exactly said:

Originally Posted by me yesterDay

I will definitely not vote Rikae - I don't find her particularly suspicious and besides I don't like it when there is but one person who is being voted. It's nothing to encourage discussion other than "Oh my, a bandwaggon!" and is the perfect spot for baddies to slip away unnoticed.

EDIT: x-ed since Mac's 270

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm slightly concerned about the actions of the village so far. So many people are seeing malice in all corners.

We don't even know what we're looking for yet. Some comments, like Nogrod's recent speculation about different evil team strategies, and Macalaure's riposte, are immediately sensible to me, because they relate to the deduction of who our killers could be. How so? Because they take the facts, and they work around them. Our facts are the deaths of Legate and Lalaith.

Other comments, such as "So and so suspected me because of this, it's really creepy!" are based on absolutely nothing. Every instance of Werewolf dialogue can be interpreted in such a way that that it looks evil. It's all well and good normally, but we don't even know what resides in this village yet.

It's interesting how many people have easily accepted that Legate's enemies thought him a lover, while Lalaith's obviously thought her a nice quiet catch. I think only Aganzir really broke from this regarding Lalaith.

Kitanna's post, perfectly illustrating the above point, with its complete conformity, is almost tauntingly suspicious.

[Aganzir]

So she has only six posts thus far. She usually isn't one of the most vocal anyway, but although that's pretty little, I'm not worried yet. She has at least given some actual opinions.

I don't understand why Greenie thinks she should be worried of Legate if he plays as if he had nothing to worry about. She kind of contradicts herself there - if Legate was a baddie and had a lover, he would have to be worried about both his own and his lover's life. She agreed with me and Legate about Groin, though.

Greenie thought Rikae votes on day 1 were weird, and that she wouldn't call Fea's rule discussion suspicious since, in her opinion, that early it was as good a topic as any.

She didn't know what to think of Lommy, who looked normal (which means nothing). Later she pointed out, though, that Lommy's suspicion list was full of things like "A is suspicious because of X, but then again there's Y which makes her look innocentish." She thought Lommy was doing it in an exaggerating manner. This is the list she's talking about, and to me it doesn't look very much like exaggeration.

She said she didn't want to vote for Rikae because of how many had said they might vote her, and voted for Groin instead based almost entirely on gut-feeling. She thought he had been one of the least innocentish on day 1, and she didn't like his tone in some things.

On day 2 Greenie didn't understand sally's logic, either, when she said introducing new candidates close to deadline may increase the possibility of a last-minute bandwagon. I agree with her, but she could have said the same even if she was a baddie.
To her, it seems obvious that Lal was a kill with no traces, and Legate might have been suspected to be a lover.

Greenie seems somehow really smooth, but then again that's the way she is. It bothers me that I can't read her at all - she could go either way. Mostly she looks quite innocent, but there are some points which are a bit weird, like that Legate contradiction in her first post, and suggestion that Lommy is softening her opinions to an exaggerative degree (which I don't think she was doing). I also think Rikae's point of a baddie hiding in the open when Greenie speculated on Lal and Leg's deaths is worth at least noticing.

edit: xed with Nog & Eomer

[Macalaure]

I am rather puzzled by your reply to me, Nogrod. Firstly, I made one point against you on the second day, and you compare it to me being after you all the time in the past. That's a little bit out of proportion, don't you think? Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum. Was my point so well-made that you needed to bash it with the big hammer? Thirdly, instead of giving a non-meta defense of any kind, you threaten to retaliate by a rhetorical question.

I made my comment because I thought it was worth commenting on and because I thought it appropriate to poke somebody who hasn't been poked much in this game so far. You didn't respond to being poked in a very innocent-looking way...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I am rather puzzled by your reply to me, Nogrod. Firstly, I made one point against you on the second day, and you compare it to me being after you all the time in the past. That's a little bit out of proportion, don't you think?

Yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly agree. But didn't you notice the smilies? (maybe irony, self-irony or sarcasm isn't for the WW-games then...)

Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum.

Here I must admit I'm beginning to regret my point already. My only "defence" is that your points were just soo far-fetched I kind of tried to do away with them once and for all so that we could concentrate on the in-game wolf-hunting. And it already seems that the mountain is coming out from the initial molehill because of my poor judgement (unless you're a wolf Mac and this is not in vain...).


But you raise once again a good question. The meta-level is there all the time and it has its effects, big effects indeed. Still I kind of agree with you that it should not be prominent. Maybe I've played too many games and need to take a pause? I just had no inspiration to go on the long path of counter-arguing in the traditional sense.

Originally Posted by Mac

I made my comment because I thought it was worth commenting on and because I thought it appropriate to poke somebody who hasn't been poked much in this game so far.

Thank you indeed! (no smilies as I'm quite honest with this praise) I mean Day1 was just terrible! Nobody suspected me! It was weird and dangerous. I was so sure I'd find myself among the corpses after a total butchery taking place last Night.



But then, let the in-game arguments fly!

Originally Posted by Mac

Was my point so well-made that you needed to bash it with the big hammer?

No. It was soo bad there were no reasonable instruments available to do away with it.

Originally Posted by Mac

Thirdly, instead of giving a non-meta defense of any kind, you threaten to retaliate by a rhetorical question.

How would you defend yourself against an accusation which is based on pure speculation concerning your own motives? You could say of course: "no, that was not the way I was thinking...".

Originally Posted by Mac

You didn't respond to being poked in a very innocent-looking way...

Funny you should say that for now you are contradicting yourself - and possibly your aim is to get some others to believe your gusto and disregard the erratic nature of your points and the motivation behind them to just get me lynched because you're a baddie!

(hah: answer that before you demand I should answer your questions on my possible motivation behind my posting).

The contradiction there? Well, first you say I'm playing unfair as I go for meta-defence which means you don't like the way I corrected you on meta-level on why your initial accusations - that I'd kill Lalaith or Legate - were totally mistaken (and in this you're correct: I'm already a bit ashamed of my conduct there) but then you say my answer was not very innocent looking...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum.

Well, I like meta-game discussion.

[Brinniel]

Hmm...so two more are dead. What does this mean? Do we only have two sets of lovers among us, or is it possible that two pairs chose the same kill?

Lalaith's death isn't terribly surprising...she didn't post a lot and left little tracks. Legate I'm more curious about. He had the second most amount of posts and was getting plenty of attention...so why kill him? Did they think he was gifted or perhaps even part of another team of lovers? Of the two, I think the former would be more likely...especially since I recall Legate speculating about gifteds.

Gah, it's late and I'm tired...but I'd like to look back at yesterDay before going to bed since I know by the time I return there'll be a whole slew of posts and I'll probably be kept plenty busy catching up.

EDIT: X-ed with everyone

[Brinniel]

The Voting:

Eomer: ++Rikae (Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Rikae (Rikae 2)
Greenie: ++Groin (Rikae 2, Groin 1)
Mac: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1)
Eönwë: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1)
Lommy: ++Eomer (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1, Eomer 1)
Lalaith: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Aganzir: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Legate: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1)
Fea: ++Mac (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gollum: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Fea (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1)
Rikae: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Nogrod: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Shasta: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 2)
Brinn: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 4, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Sally: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 5, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)

Didn't vote: Groin, McCaber (am I missing anyone?)

Originally Posted by Sally

Just because there were two deaths and no ranger save doesn't mean there's only two teams of lovers. It's distinctly possible (at some point someone was discussing it) that if two/more teams pick the same person, only that one person dies (i.e. no repicks). Not to be a pessimist, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Yes, it's something I mentioned as well and it's certainly a possibility (though in that scenario I would guess there are no more than three pairs). But of course, we don't know whether Di has something completely different up her sleeve...which is entirely possible..

Bah, I was going to do more than just paste the vote count but I'm so sleepy.. I think I'll just go to bed now and return to share my thoughts when my head is clearer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

One post before bed (and I'm only up this late because I was typing a rehearsal report!)

Legate and Lalaith. I'm not sure at all about the latter, but I have a strong suspicion the former was targeted in hopes that he was a Lover.

As for Lommy, I wouldn't have guessed she was a plain old Lonely Heart. Guess I'm 0/1 as for right now, .

Good night (to my neighbors; good morning to those across the pond!)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Good night (to my neighbors; good morning to those across the pond!)

Good Morning!


As for the game...

Lalaith didn't really get say enough for there to be any trails there.

But then Legate was one of the most active. And if I remember correctly, he and Mac were at each others throats until quite late that Day (well, actually, more into the afternoon but we Europeans suffer from jet-lag on this island- for us it was late-ish). So in that case it could have been either Mac being very bold, and because its so obvious, thought no-one would suspect him, or more likely it could be someone framing him. Obviously I could be going down the completely wrong path, and maybe that's what the lovers want me to do.

[Eönwë]

Just adding the night phase bits to what Rikae did:

Day 1:

Eomer: Rikae (1)
Kitanna: Rikae (2)
Greenie: Groin (1)
Mac: Lommy [ordo] (1)
Eönwë: Legate [ordo] (1)
Lommy [ordo]: Eomer (1)
Lalaith [ordo]: Legate [ordo] (1)
Aganzir: Lommy [ordo] (2)
Legate [ordo]: Kitanna (1)
Fea: Mac (1)
Gollum: Lommy [ordo] (3)
Gwath: Fea (1)
Rikae: Aganzir (1)
Nogrod: Kitanna (2)
Shasta: Aganzir (2)
Brinn: Lommy [ordo] (4)
Sally: Lommy [ordo] (5)


Lynched: Lommy [ordo]

Night 1:

Killed: Lalaith [ordo], Legate [ordo]
Saved: ?


*= vote didn't count
+= thought/ knew vote didn't count
()= total votes for person that day so far
<>= total votes for person from an individual so far
[]= known status/ postion e.g. ordo

[Macalaure]

Only two deaths?

So that means that either we have only two pairs of lovers, or it just happened that some chose the same target. It could also be that the lovers are in some way impaired in the way their kill is carried out (4 couples that only get 2 kills?). Well, let's say we have two pairs lovers (or do we maybe have two teams of lovers?). I suppose they're still interested in eliminating each other as well as killing the seer (they probably don't know whether there's a seer either) and making the usual kills to improve their individual situation. That gives the intention behind the choice of the kills an additional dimension that should be considered.

We probably have no chance to accurately guess what the situation for the lovers is really like, because we have an evil moddess who came up with a scenario nobody is supposed to be able to guess. Hmph.

I think Rikae is too quick to discard the possibility that anything useful can be learned from Lalaith's and Legate's deaths. I will have a look at them later today.

I don't really like Eomer's post. His rule speculations sound very specific, and following Fea's idea yesterday that somebody who knows the rules might slip up when discussing them, this makes me wary. I'm not convinced of Eomer's percentage game, to say the least. He also explains his vote by simply agreeing with somebody else, which is the easiest way.


I'll be back later with some comments on what happened after I voted and thoughts on our kills.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So for all the talk of absolute carnage, two are dead? That means there is either two teams of lovers, each with a kill; or one team of four lovers, and Diamond emerges as somewhat less interested in monogamy than I might have suspected.

Or another option that I'm not seeing right now. And I'm afraid I won't be around until much later as I have work... er, I mean, I'll be busying myself constructing romantic poesy.

If there are teams, do they all know who each other are? Then they could try setting each other up with the kills. But if they don't know their enemies then this line of speculation does the village no good (I think).

What may be more useful is playing the percentage game, in choosing those who were not involved with, say, Lalaith, and selecting a pair from the two of them. This assumes that Lalaith and Legate were killed to leave no trail, which is often agreed upon as being at least 'not a bad method'.

Ach, it still seems tricksome today.

As for my vote yesterday, Rikae got it spot on. Pot and stirring. That's all.