Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Thinlómien]

Wow, mister Nogrodman actually makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Legate

But I think this talk about the numbers is not completely pointless, as it can help us stop and think for ourselves and giving us one more thing to consider when voting: "Okay, I want to vote either X or Y for a Rep, but I see we have already six Representatives who have two votes, and one of them is X. And by voting Y, I am about to bring another Rep there with my vote, but I don't want such a high number of Reps, so I will vote rather for X than for Y." Something like that, I hope you get the point (of course in the example I am leaving out the things about X possibly getting four votes etc, but the example was aimed just on the number of representatives).

Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

And lastly, since no one has brought it up yet, it's perfectly possible that innocent people will elect one or more wolves as their representatives and thereby wolves could be trying to seem reasonable and trustworthy just to gather innocent rep votes. Which means I'm not going to vote anyone who seems too sane to be my representative.


edit: xed with Nog, Nog, Kath, Boro, Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Fea, just a general question. Can the filibuster only take place at the end of the lynch-vote by the representatives (as I've thought it is) or is it possible to filibuster even when choosing the representatives?

From what I see on the Admin thread it looks like one can filibuster on both parts of the Day.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yes, things like that did cross my mind but that really hasn't got that much to do with talking about the number of representatives... Because what you talk about is something that depends on every single player's common sense.

Speaking of these issues, I'd rather have lots of "weak" representatives than just a few people who wield immense power. It would strike me as more democratic and less dangerous.

Why not vote just one person and give it many votes? "...into the first Gallactic Empaijaa!!!"

(Wow. I never thought before how much, when written, this seems like Finnish... )

Though not, of course, that's why I spoke about some 5 or 6 or so representatives looking as an optimal number from my part. Hauevaa, while you are right that it depends on every player's common sense, it is always worth pointing that out to give others food for thought - and then apply their common sense enrichened by the conscious reflection of what has been said on the topic. Isn't that what we do with all things in WW?

EDIT: x-ed with Fea. Okay, so I was right

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro and Phantom seem to be nicely buddy-buddy today, don't they?

[Boromir88]

Imagine I vote for a player, and the only reason for me voting him would be because he supports lynching the people I want to.~Legate

I never knew I'd have to spell it out all here...I mean I thought it was kind of already assumed that you choose a representative who you trust.

I doubt anyone is going to be choosing their reps on a whim, or based solely on the fact that their rep wants to lynch the same person. I have high expectations. Someone I trust is innocent, and someone who will repesent me, I expect both. End of story. If you can't live up to that, tough luck.

Which is why I'm confused to why exactly you ruled out the phantom so soon? Explain it to me, was it a joke for some laughs, and a little fun at what you promised earlier? I mean really if we follow your logic for not wanting to choose the phantom right now, you can say that about anyone in this village. I see no reason you should trust anyone right now, but right off the bat you said it aint gonna be the phantom. You didn't exclude anyone else, just the phantom.

By no means am I saying the phantom should be a representative, but the question is why should we immediately exclude anyone? Because of the history? Are you afraid history will repeat itself if you make the same mistakes? Why does what Day we're on make any difference?

This is a clean slate, a brand new ball game. If I was to use such a weak excuse as "history" for not choosing a rep, I could come up with some cockamamy reason for anyone in this village except Ilya.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all.

[the phantom]

I'm slowly catching up on everyone's posts. I'll respond to them a few at a time.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

But sorry in a representative I don't want someone with their own mind, I want someone with my mind.

That is contrary to the entire point of having representatives. If we just vote for people who would vote the same way as us anyway, then all we're doing is having a mass vote, just like always.

And this goes for the next comment as well-

Originally Posted by Legate

I am also unwilling to give votes to certain people as Reps, for now, and among them is Mr. P. for the simple reason that he's too wilful.... We need strong Representatives, who have the intentions of the people in mind, and not just their own.

You say we need a "strong" rep, and yet you don't think that reps who will vote independently and with conviction are a good choice?

That is massive contradiction.

A strong rep will vote the way he feels. A weak rep will hide behind those that elected him.

Nogrod made an excellent point on this matter already-

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The one thing I'm afraid though is that a wolf elected as a representative may hide her/his motives behind the "popular support" - as someone already said that s/he would like to see the rep vote her/his way, not the rep's own way!

That is lovely reasoning Nogrod. A Werewolf could simply change his vote and not appear suspicious for it via following the whims of one of his constituents. "Well, you know, I was gonna vote for so-and-so, but since you did elect me and you're leaning this way I'll go ahead and vote that way."

Of course it would be done less obviously than that, but you get the point surely.

[the phantom]

I still don't understand the anti-filibuster votes. What's the point? We've been given a unique set up and we're basically voting to normalize it. Where's your spirit of adventure?

Do you actually fear it will be put to use with negative consequences here on Day 1?

Oh well.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I think they might just lay low and vote innocents as representatives because it's more probable that a village lynches an innocent anyway.

On Day 1 it is indeed likely that we will need no assitance in lynching an innocent, but surely the Werewolves must consider their positioning the rest of the game.

If people sit around and then suddenly try to turn themselves into reps after the first couple days then suspicion will go up. I would think it would be best to become a trusted rep as soon as possible. For at least a couple of the Wolves anyway. I'd think you would always want a bit of voting power, just in case.

Originally Posted by Lommy

But I don't like you bringing up this point at all. If you really did request so, it's rather unsporty of you to say it aloud. And if you didn't, that's a rather stupid trick. And at any rate, who says Fea would have fulfilled your request?

I agree that it would be unsporty to claim it. But notice that I merely floated it as a possibility.

Di had floated the idea that Fea would show favoritism (make me a Wolf) based on our relationship, and I think I was within bounds to respond and display that the favoritism could also work in the other direction.

Originally Posted by Lommy

He's too all over the place, he says some silly things and posts sometimes plain nonsense. Why?

It's called fun. You remember fun, don't you?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Which is why I'm confused to why exactly you ruled out the phantom so soon? Explain it to me, was it a joke for some laughs, and a little fun at what you promised earlier? I mean really if we follow your logic for not wanting to choose the phantom right now, you can say that about anyone in this village. I see no reason you should trust anyone right now, but right off the bat you said it aint gonna be the phantom. You didn't exclude anyone else, just the phantom.

By no means am I saying the phantom should be a representative, but the question is why should we immediately exclude anyone? Because of the history? Are you afraid history will repeat itself if you make the same mistakes? Why does what Day we're on make any difference?

This is a clean slate, a brand new ball game. If I was to use such a weak excuse as "history" for not choosing a rep, I could come up with some cockamamy reason for anyone in this village except Ilya.

Okay, well, see, it's not like it will be only the phantom - I have more or less some list of players whom I would like to see as Reps and whom I would not, basically given on my experience with how they act in certain situations. That is no outdated history stuff, I believe you are not saying that I'd think something like "X was a Wolf last time, I am not going to vote him". But still, there are basically people I would dare to nominate and those I am - on first thought - reluctant to nominate, at least. Some I won't nominate - for the first Day at least - simply because I don't know them well enough (like Ilya whom I meet for the first time here). With some, I am reluctant, because I simply won't wish to rely on their judgement in hard situation. I named tp in particular because he's a classic character (and no hard feelings, hope, Mr. P. ) and because I told that before-game, right, but that did not serve as basis for my current stance towards him, but merely for a reason to name him in particular in my post. There are others, more, whom I would not vote right now, but I simply did not name them all. I would not have named any, most probably, had I not made that remark about tp before the game. Is that clear, I hope?

May I have a counter-question, Boro, though (if it is clear, if not, ask more) - what was your reason to ask me this? If you only could formulate why are you asking me about that, "why did I name tp in particular". Thank ye.

Originally Posted by the phantom

You say we need a "strong" rep, and yet you don't think that reps who will vote independently and with conviction are a good choice?

That is massive contradiction.

A strong rep will vote the way he feels. A weak rep will hide behind those that elected him.

Yes, that's what I said (several times) - and I would sign the thing you quoted from Nog, too. Maybe I just did not make myself clear. I said here several times, that I believe that Reps who are needed are strong, indeed, reliable people, about whom I am certain that they can make judgements in hard situations, for the good of the village. Not just for their own. That is simply, that I won't vote somebody whom I don't trust in the sense that he could vote just based on a whim or something. That was my point - the slight difference between "strong and independant" and "wilful". I can't think now how to phrase it better than that.

EDIT: x-ed since Phantom I quoted (i.e. with posts after #99)

[Boromir88]

Boro, you could say history doesn't matter, but look at how much Phantom has already said! History tends to repeat itself, after all. ~Shasta

History is an excuse for the faint of heart. I'm not afraid to say Mac totally played me for a fool last time, but if he were in this village now, I would not use that a reason for not wanting him as a rep.

Or look at it this way...if history has any bearing on what will happen now, and if the phantom's a wolf, well we're all screwed now anyway. All we can do now is fight against the inevitable defeat.