Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

To follow on from what Boro said, the McCaber kill tells us a lot about the wolves, although Cabbie himself said very little.


Why get rid of Cabbie when he's (as of yet) not posing a threat to you? There's no ranger in your way, why not go for a loud, very experienced player (which isn't to say that Cabbie is a newbie, because he's not) and get one of the big threats out of the way.

For instance, the way I play. (Like I should be telling you all this, but I'm trying to prove a point.)


When I'm seer, my first night dream is ALWAYS someone I know I can rely on to make a lot of trouble. Well, not so much trouble as noise I suppose. That way I already know where they're coming from and can gauge other's reactions from theirs. Either that or someone I thoroughly enjoy playing with, and then I pretty much hope they're innocent so I don't have to kill them. (For instance, the game where I was a seer on here my first dream was Nog.)

When I'm a wolf, and there's a ranger, my first night kill is either a person whom I see as a threat just because of who they are, a person whom I don't like playing with as much as the others (don't take offense at that, any of my/our past kills from other games. I rarely use that as a kill pick method) or for who I think the seer might be (if it doesn't seem too obvious, as in they're leaving fairly big seer hints and I think they'll be protected). Granted, last game I didn't follow that pattern, but if I recall properly Gollum really wanted Legate dead. Moving on....if there's no ranger I go for the seer the first night. Period.



Can I use old games as evidence? I really don't think so, but my argument will make more sense if I mention this. One game I was an ordo and Nerwen was a wolf (I can't remember who her packmates were and it's pretty much irrelevant). I died the first night. That's right, Sally died the first night. Random kill much, children? (Also, you don't kill Sally the first night. You just don't. You keep me around to lynch, dang it! )

Sorry, I digress again. Anyway, I believe it was early in the second Day that Nerwen mentioned something about the ranger. There is no ranger in this game. Now she may have been kidding around, but my theory?

You don't kill someone like Cabbie the first night unless you're playing a risky game. You go for the seer unless there's a ranger, and even then you try. So if you think there's a ranger and you're the kind of player who likes to kill off semi-random people, who would you go for? Someone like Cabbie. And who would do that? Someone like Nerwen.

I just woke up. Does this make any sense?


EDIT: x'd with some little green girl.

Here's a start. See, that's the thing that tipped me off to Nerwen in the first place, and I did indeed mention it. That and her comment right after Cabbie was killed. Notice that I came up with the thought, not Morm, as Nerwen suggested (which if I remember right is the biggest piece of her case against me besides the double lynch day). In fact, Morm actually disagreed with my reasoning above. Granted, he could have been bluffing to distance himself from me, but it seemed pretty genuine for Morm so I'll take it at face value, at least as much as I'd trust a wolf.



My sincerest apologies, but I keep falling asleep going through posts. I'm off to take a small nap. I'll be back as soon as I can, I promise. Sorry again for being so bloody useless all game. Heh. *toddles off for a bit*

[Nerwen]

Okay: I see Sally has acquired a couple of votes.

While she's the person I am currently most likely to vote for, I'd like to hear more from her first.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I wanted to wait around to see Sally's case against Nerwen, but it is late now and I am totaly destroyed from playing football.

I actually find the begining rather interesting, I would have liked to be around to see where she is going with it and to have debated a bit more.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I wanted to wait around to see Sally's case against Nerwen, but it is late now and I am totaly destroyed from playing football.

I actually find the begining rather interesting, I would have liked to be around to see where she is going with it and to have debated a bit more.

In the meantime, please look at my last post.

I really don't know what to think.

[Nerwen]

Can I just clarify something? The reason I didn't like Sally's "flaw in the plan" business, and her push for a triple-lynch, is not that I'm so opposed to lynching Gil, but because it looks to me like she might have been seeking a way to "accidentally" de-rail the double-lynch. A risky business, certainly, but I wouldn't be surprised at a wolf panicking at that situation.

Re: Sally's post at #1609.

Ah... now this is a start, Sally. Not much of a start, but a start. In your own post that you quoted above, you say that it's "irrelevant" who my packmates were in that game. Not so: one of them was Nogrod, and the idea to kill you came from him.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Notice that I came up with the thought, not Morm, as Nerwen suggested (which if I remember right is the biggest piece of her case against me besides the double lynch day).

Yes, you came up with a weak reason to suspect someone already suspected on equally weak grounds– which completely contradicted yours, by the way. (In contrast, quite a number of people thought the kill pointed to Nogrod... but no-one was willing to base a case against him on that alone.)

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

In fact, Morm actually disagreed with my reasoning above. Granted, he could have been bluffing to distance himself from me, but it seemed pretty genuine for Morm so I'll take it at face value, at least as much as I'd trust a wolf.

morm disagreed because his "theory" of why I was a wolf depended on my knowing perfectly well there was a Ranger... and lying about it. Have you actually not realised that yet?

However, the fact that you haven't is a point in your favour, as you'd think mormewolf would have told you at Night. Hmmn.

But anyway, Sally, I asked for your current case... the one which has to take into account the heavy attack on me from a known wolf. I'm not trying to trap you: I want to give you a chance to explain yourself. You're going to have to do better than you have so far.

I'm torn at the moment. It seems to me that your behaviour towards me could mean one of two things:

1. You're a wolf. You made a "me-too" leap for me when morm attacked me, without noticing that your reasoning contradicted his. You continued "suspecting" me after morm was exposed, without coming up with an explanation, because you weren't thinking like an innocent.

2. You're an ordo. You haven't had time to pay much attention to the game, and you're suspecting me out of habit and stubbornness.

General comment: the reason I'm findiing it so hard to make up my mind is that I've played a game in which the following things happened:

1. Rikae (wolf) and I (ordo) fought bitterly for a couple of Days.
2. Rikae was exposed by the Seer.
3. Sally pushed very hard to have me lynched instead of the known wolf Rikae, because she was "so stinking sure" I was a wolf too.
4. Sally got lynched next Day for her blatant attempt to save Rikae.
5. Sally turned out to be an ordo.

I have to go out now– I hope to be back in an hour or so.

EDIT: X'd with Rune and Brinniel.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Can I just clarify something? The reason I didn't like Sally's "flaw in the plan" business, and her push for a triple-lynch, is not that I'm so opposed to lynching Gil, but because it looks to me like she might have been seeking a way to "accidentally" de-rail the double-lynch. A risky business, certainly, but I wouldn't be surprised at a wolf panicking at that situation.

Re: Sally's post at #1609.

Ah... now this is a start, Sally. Not much of a start, but a start. In your own post that you quoted above, you say that it's "irrelevant" who my packmates were in that game. Not so: one of them was Nogrod, and the idea to kill you came from him.



Yes, you came up with a weak reason to suspect someone already suspected on equally weak grounds– which completely contradicted yours, by the way. (In contrast, quite a number of people thought the kill pointed to Nogrod... but no-one was willing to base a case against him on that alone.)



morm disagreed because his "theory" of why I was a wolf depended on my knowing perfectly well there was a Ranger... and lying about it. Have you actually not realised that yet?

However, the fact that you haven't is a point in your favour, as you'd think mormewolf would have told you at Night. Hmmn.

But anyway, Sally, I asked for your current case... the one which has to take into account the heavy attack on me from a known wolf. I'm not trying to trap you: I want to give you a chance to explain yourself. You're going to have to do better than you have so far.

I'm torn at the moment. It seems to me that your behaviour towards me could mean one of two things:

1. You're a wolf. You made a "me-too" leap for me when morm attacked me, without noticing that your reasoning contradicted his. You continued "suspecting" me after morm was exposed, without coming up with an explanation, because you weren't thinking like an innocent.

2. You're an ordo. You haven't had time to pay much attention to the game, and you're suspecting me out of habit and stubbornness.

General comment: the reason I'm findiing it so hard to make up my mind is that I've played a game in which the following things happened:

1. Rikae (wolf) and I (ordo) fought bitterly for a couple of Days.
2. Rikae was exposed by the Seer.
3. Sally pushed very hard to have me lynched instead of the known wolf Rikae, because she was "so stinking sure" I was a wolf too.
4. Sally got lynched next Day for her blatant attempt to save Rikae.
5. Sally turned out to be an ordo.

I have to go out now– I hope to be back in an hour or so.

EDIT: X'd with Rune and Brinniel.

At this point I'm just going to ignore Nerwen (not entirely, but I'm no longer going to respond to her egging me on, which is essentially all it is now) because I don't want to spend my potentially last hour alive in the village on her. So on that note I say one more time.

I suspect you of my own accord. No one else swayed me either way. I suspect you because you behaved suspiciously and I know that you, being crafty, would be pulling some of the same moves the wolves were pulling earlier in the game, and the way you react to my suspicion of you (rather rudely, might I add because you're suspecting me on much less, which I'll get to in a minute, yet you say it is I that is stubborn) makes me all the more suspicious.

And your case on me relies on such silly things.
A: I followed Morm in his suspicion of you. False. I suspected you as soon as I saw your post (the one about how 'expected' Cabbie's death was or whatever it was) because it seemed to awkward. I thought your lack of knowledge of the rules (particularly the ranger slip, though I do admit that could have been innocent I think it's very possible it was not) seemed off. You don't strike me as the kind to not pay attention to these things, so the fact that you made that mistake either means you are innocent and forgot to check everything or that you are a wolf and had assumed there was a ranger. Which would have factored into who you wanted to kill (granted Nog and Morm and Ka would have known, but most likely assumed you did as well) that fateful night. In short, I've covered why I suspected you, or at least why I started to suspect you, and that is the end of the discussion. Obviously there are others but there are other people in the game to concentrate on too.

B: the double/triple lynch day. Mind, I voiced my unhappiness with Nerwen being a rep because I suspected her. So yes, I was more than happy to go to the lengths to make sure the plan worked. (And admittedly I was a little overeager, but that's because I actually had a day off and was pretty much just hyperactive because I had the opportunity to be so in some context). I didnt' expect you to take action that Day, but when Morm's vote for Phantom made you the other voting rep, I got even more worried than I already was. And am I to be suspected for trying to help the village? I realized there was an alternative way to vote and put it up for discussion. Essentially I wanted to give Phantom the opportunity to kill Nog (and myself, just to spite the silly man ) and figured that if I had the chance, the addition to the plan wasn't that complicated. Never did I not run my idea past the group first, nor did I act against the will of the group on that Day. I simply provided alternatives to the idea we (or rather, Boro) already had.

C: You just always suspect me. Fair enough. I'm a bit biased myself, because in the last game in which you were a wolf you were, indeed, fairly crafty, and so I've learned never to trust you in the game unless I know your role. However, I have not continued to suspect you without cause and I haven't been simply concentrating on you (or at least I'd like not to be, but alas it appears I am spending my potential last hours talking about you) so I don't see how that is a problem. I don't have you on an auto-suspect list; I just refuse to trust you. There's a difference. Oh, and in that game you mentioned? Note that I was innocent. Scatterbrained and innocent, so basically you're saying that I act suspicious when I'm not so the fact that I'm suspicious means....I must be? Hehe. Does not compute.



Sorry. Forgot to turn on my alarm, apparently. Here now, and I'll go through and respond to a few things. Just give me a few minutes to collect my brain because otherwise you'll end up with more posts as all over the place as this one. My thoughts on Nerwen are in the open. I'll answer any questions anyone has, but I'm done spending my time on one person. I still need to rethink Ilya and Gwath. (And that Phantom's not half as funny as he appears, children, so watch that one)

[Nerwen]

Sally, you have either not read my post properly, not understood it, or you are twisting it on purpose.

You have covered why you started to suspect me. So why did you continue? That's the question I have asked you repeatedly, and which you have ignored.

I also do not like your strawman tactic of claiming that one of my points is that I always suspect you. This is simply not true, on either count.

Please, Sally, I know you're pressed for time, but if you have a better defence I want to hear it. I don't want to lynch you if you're innocent.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Sally, you have either not read my post properly, not understood it, or you are twisting it on purpose.

You have covered why you started to suspect me. So why did you continue? That's the question I have asked you repeatedly, and which you have ignored.

I also do not like your strawman tactic of claiming that one of my points is that I always suspect you. This is simply not true, on either count.

Please, Sally, I know you're pressed for time, but if you have a better defence I want to hear it. I don't want to lynch you if you're innocent.

I've answered that. It's because of the way you reacted (and continue to react) to my suspicion of you.


And you said it yourself. I didn't mean to imply that you always suspect me, but that I'm pretty sure you would have suspected me no matter how I behaved the last couple days. Sorry for not making that more clear.


Off to Ilya. Hopefully. (I think I need to do some tinkering on my computer real quick because he's acting funny, eating things he shouldn't and such, so I'll be back ASAP.)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I've answered that. It's because of the way you reacted (and continue to react) to my suspicion of you.

Sally, I ignored your initial suspicion of me. At that time I was having too much trouble defending myself from morm and Aganzir.

Last chance: what is the reason for your continued suspicion? I keep asking you this. Why won't you answer?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

And you said it yourself. I didn't mean to imply that you always suspect me, but that I'm pretty sure you would have suspected me no matter how I behaved the last couple days. Sorry for not making that more clear.

No. You said I made automatic suspicion of you part of my argument. I have never done that, to you or anyone. If I do say I always suspect someone, it's to acknowledge my own bias. Besides, I don't always suspect you. What gave you that idea?

You understand the situation? Unless I vote for Gwath now, you're dead. That won't doom the village, the way the numbers are, but it would be a pity if you're innocent and he's the wolf, wouldn't it?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You understand the situation? Unless I vote for Gwath now, you're dead. That won't doom the village, the way the numbers are, but it would be a pity if you're innocent and he's the wolf, wouldn't it?

My mistake. I forgot about ties and the current number of reps.

So she's dead. The question is, do I bring Gwath to a tie with her or not?

EDIT: clarifying a comment.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Sally, I ignored your initial suspicion of me. At that time I was having too much trouble defending myself from morm and Aganzir.

Last chance: what is the reason for your continued suspicion? I keep asking you this. Why won't you answer?



No. You said I made automatic suspicion of you part of my argument. I have never done that, to you or anyone. If I do say I always suspect someone, it's to acknowledge my own bias. Besides, I don't always suspect you. What gave you that idea?

You understand the situation? Unless I vote for Gwath now, you're dead. That won't doom the village, the way the numbers are, but it would be a pity if you're innocent and he's the wolf, wouldn't it?

Then you should vote for the person who has been acting the most suspicious. if you think that's me, then you'll vote for me and nothing I'm going to say in the next five minutes or so is going to stop you. And technically I'm dead either way, unless the last two reps both vote for Gwath.


I'd really prefer if you'd stop talking about the way I'm acting and concentrate on someone else. Why else would I be so keen to brush you off, besides the obvious? I'd rather you use your time catching a wolf instead of talking about me. Assuming you're not the wolf, of course, but if you're not you would start thinking more about others and not just questioning everything I say.


My computer froze. You want I should try to make a post before deadline? And if so, tell me who and I'll do it, or at least try. Last full measure of devotion and all that business.

Posting now. Seeing what's happening

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I suspected you as soon as I saw your post (the one about how 'expected' Cabbie's death was or whatever it was) because it seemed to awkward. I thought your lack of knowledge of the rules (particularly the ranger slip, though I do admit that could have been innocent I think it's very possible it was not) seemed off. You don't strike me as the kind to not pay attention to these things, so the fact that you made that mistake either means you are innocent and forgot to check everything or that you are a wolf and had assumed there was a ranger. Which would have factored into who you wanted to kill (granted Nog and Morm and Ka would have known, but most likely assumed you did as well) that fateful night.

I think that this is an interesting theory, but that maybe it is too neat and tries to explain too many things at once? I don't know. It's plausible nonetheless. Points for creativity, sally!