The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Aganzir]

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

[Lalwendë]

This was quite an easy one at long last!

++Merry

He's a Hobbit so he automatically beats an Elf of course. But he's also a very likeable chap. He's not as silly as Pippin or as 'away with the fairies' as Frodo, but he's very, very nice and seems like the kind of chap you'd like to have as a friend - reliable and sensible but not a bore!

[skip spence]

++Luthien

If she could move Namo Mandos, the Unmovable, how can I resist? I especially like her in the Lost Tales: her Mata Hari-number in Morgoth's court is an all time classic.

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

is awesome... but it's still a hard decision, because I like Merry a lot. However, this way I'll annoy Mithalwen.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. For example, I even dreamt that I would like to marry him.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

Well it certainly isn't her sparkling dialogue and great personality is it? Surely the fact the woman never speaks is a factor.

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier ?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier?

I have nothing against a woman finding happiness or purpose in marriage, nor do I definitely have anything against women finding their place in a profession that falls within the limits of the rather limited traditional female role. However, I'm not happy with Éowyn's end, it seems a bit forced. (I admit I would probably like Éowyn's story better if it was in a book written by a more feminist author...) I don't mean to imply that Éowyn even wanted to be a career soldier, but she did have the spirit of a warrior instead of a passive caretaker which she had been all her life. I don't want to pursue this topic too much within the limits of this thread, but I'll say I would have liked to see her end up as some sort of independent ruler (of course, nothing against her co-ruling with her beloved husband ) who would take the sword to protect her people if necessary. But the healer-ending is just too lame, and too much of the sort that "a smart girl stops disobeying and takes the place she was appointed (by men) in the first place".

Mith, why don't you vote Merry now, btw?

[Mithalwen]

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herself - and the greatest healers in Middle Earth are men!!! Elrond & his sons, Aragorn..the houses of healing is run by a man.

However maybe, at the risk of sounding very patronising, it takes age and experience to "get" Eowyn. I thought much the same at your age though I loved Eowyn, I felt she had got a lesser fate. Only later and after much more careful reading did I realise she hit the jackpot. It is quite clear to me that she will be Galadriels to Faramir's Celeborn (albeit a rather more interesting Celeborn ). Eowyn will never be passive and I doubt that is what Faramir would want. Far less lame than dying for love like Luthien and her mini-me.

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.

Anyway ++Merry. He is a splendid hobbit. He is observant, curious but thinks first unlike Master Took. he is a scholar (a philologist what is more) but not a bore. He is a bon viveur without being decadent and though a smoker has the decency to do so outside. He is a great friend and shows true courage. Sam's bravery stems from his devotion, Frodo has his duty, Pippin to an extent is along for the ride but Merry has more understanding of what he is letting himself in for and still goes. Then he is a Brandybuck and has that "Celtic" quirkiness I can relate to. And he hates places that are too noisy ...I am quite one to prefer a quiet walk and a breath of air over a crowded bar at times.

I keep thinking of him as a "Spook" now.... maybe Harry. He has always been one of my favourite characters whereas the canary is fighting it out with Bombadil for most hated.

++Meriadoc Brandybuck

[skip spence]

Summing up the votes it appears Luthien, our favourite fluttering infatuation, has danced herself to a 7-6 win. It's also been made clear she can't rely on any support from Mithalwen in later rounds.

Match 12 of Round 1:

Now for a real Aman derby where feelings are bound get heated. He was fascinated by her beautiful golden locks, but was refused even a single strand of it. One thing led to another and soon enough he led a rebellion against the Gods, leading the Noldor back to Middle Earth. She came too, perhaps just to **** him off.

Fëanor vs. Galadriel

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. For example, I even dreamt that I would like to marry him.

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

[Gollum the Great]

++Feanor

I love craftsmen. This guy fought Balrogs.

[Thinlómien]

What a no-brainer.

++Galadriel

I don't like Fëanor. I know I've said I like proud characters, but he's proud to the point of being unpleasant. I can only think of two good things in him: some of his sons are rather nice and what happend to his body after his death is pretty cool. (Okay, totally wrong choice of word this time. )

Galadriel, on the other hand, is among my favourite characters ever. I like her better than any other woman in Tolkien's works, except maybe Haleth, but she's such a minor character that they cannot really be compared.

Galadriel is proud (the key word, you see ) but not foolish nor full of herself. She's very wise and has some rather uncanny skills. Or what would you say of her mind-reading and her mirror? Also, she's ambitious and full of desire to see new lands, both of which I approve of. She has also a nicely subtle sense of humour.

Furthermore, I very much like the duality in her nature. The Noldorin pride and a certain coldness mixed with a spirit that is, in the end, very gentle. Her story intrigues me and its sadness touches me: she is, in a way, the embodiment or the symbol of the Elves' leaving Middle-Earth and the fading of their achievements.

edit: xed with Agan and Lal... interesting

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.

Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear.

Originally Posted by Mith

But she is not taking a male appointed role. She is taking the role she chooses for herself

But the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.

Originally Posted by Mith

Incidentally when she was given the opportunity to lead her people she didn't take it. She has spirit certainly but I think in times of peace she would not seek battle for its own sake. I see no blood lust in her. Her mission is to defend her king not simply fight else she would have stayed with Elfhelm's Eored.

Yes, and I could imagine her later having a similar mission to defend her people, or something. She does have a sort of warrior spirit in her, after all.

Originally Posted by Agan

Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But the role she takes clearly mirrors the role she was given earlier when she had to take care of Théoden. So, in a way, it is a male appointed role.

Exactly. Well phrased, m'dear.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Yeah, indeed: Finland is the notorious feminist country where women have always been at least quite equal with men and got the right to vote third in the world and first in Europe.

And we don't have separate pronouns for he and she. We're all just hän. Or alternatively, men are referred to as se, 'it'.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

We're clearly a minority.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

Yes, go ahead. :-D

The following pair is really difficult (I, too, am starting to hate you, skip). I like both Fëanor and Galadriel and wouldn't like either of them to fall out now.

Garr.

I am not one of those who think Fëanor was stupid because of his pride and its consequences. They are just an interesting trait. And an inner fire like that!
However I find Galadriel a bit boring in Lotr - it's Nerwen () whom I really really adore. Galadriel is wise and sweet and all, but somehow... I don't know.

++Fëanor

But it's really a flip of a coin.

edit: xed with Gollum

[Lalwendë]

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

Don't say that!

Galadriel is lovely, wise and powerful. . .The other could easily be the master of Sauron.

++Galadriel

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel

Feanor makes cool stuff and speaks real purtty, but
as far politics and military strategy go he's dumb as a doorknob.

Btw, I wonder if they have cable tv in the Halls of Mandos. If so
it'd be interesting to see Feanor's reaction when (a dwarf!) gets
three strands of Galadriel's hair.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her

... which should lead into a direct dismissal, right? Honestly?

---

Whom I would like to have as my friend? Galadriel.

With whom I would like to sit down and have a deep conversation of things being and not-being? Galadriel.

Whom would I trust in any matter personal, local or global? Galadriel.


Whom will I vote?

++ Fëanor

He's just the perpetator unsurpassed, the maker of great stories, the one without whom we would not have all the tensions and richenss of the history of the M-E! If all the elves were like Galadriel there would be less drama and less truth in the whole story.

Fëanor is exciting even if he's a bully and a one-track-mind idiot in the end.

[Morthoron]

A tough one, surely (I know, you're not Shirley). Anyway, these are two of the most important characters in the books (for different reasons, obviously, Shirley).

I will have to go with ++Feanor, as almost the entire Silmarillion hinges on his creations and his actions. He is despicable, vengeful, obstinate, but so were many other artistic geniuses in the 'real world'. For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

So Feanor, the brooding master, called down the heavens to witness his folly, for he loved too much the work of his hands; and the course of Middle-earth was forever changed.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man. However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy? Rather a phyrric feminist victory. Remember Tolkien was originally going to kill her off which perhaps you would have preferred - though no doubt you would claim she was being punished for not staying in her box . Which is usually the fate of women who rebel in he old novels I have read - Finnish ones maybe different. Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all. She could have said no and gone back to Rohan. Remember she goes back to Rohan to help Eomer sort the place out - hardly a conventional role. If you want to rail against conventional women have a pop at Arwen who is passive and has to be removed from Lorien when things got nasty and who will clearly be a much more conventional wife than Eowyn. You may not like the male domination in ME - I can't say I do, but it seems mean to take it out on Eowyn.


Oh I love Galadriel but bad boys are so fascinating.

++Feanor