The Middle Earth Popularity Cup - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aganzir · 11-27-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

We're clearly a minority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man.

However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Maybe I should start a new thread to find out who's sexiest in Middle Earth: "I'm too sexy for my hauberk" or perhaps "The Middle Earth Wet T-shirt Bonanza!". Maybe not.

Yes, go ahead. :-D

The following pair is really difficult (I, too, am starting to hate you, skip). I like both Fëanor and Galadriel and wouldn't like either of them to fall out now.

Garr.

I am not one of those who think Fëanor was stupid because of his pride and its consequences. They are just an interesting trait. And an inner fire like that!
However I find Galadriel a bit boring in Lotr - it's Nerwen (

) whom I really really adore. Galadriel is wise and sweet and all, but somehow... I don't know.

++Fëanor

But it's really a flip of a coin.

edit: xed with Gollum

Lalwendë · 11-27-2008, 02:22 PM

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 11-27-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

++Galadriel.

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy.

Don't say that!

Galadriel is lovely, wise and powerful. . .The other could easily be the master of Sauron.

++Galadriel

Tuor in Gondolin · 11-27-2008, 03:33 PM

+ + Galadriel

Feanor makes cool stuff and speaks real purtty, but
as far politics and military strategy go he's dumb as a doorknob.

Btw, I wonder if they have cable tv in the Halls of Mandos. If so
it'd be interesting to see Feanor's reaction when (a dwarf!) gets
three strands of Galadriel's hair.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 11-27-2008, 05:57 PM

I'd have to go with

++Galadriel

as well. Talented though he might be, Feanor had an ego that was more than a match for his gifts -- kinda like some of my more obnoxious relatives.

Nogrod · 11-27-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her

... which should lead into a direct dismissal, right? Honestly?

---

Whom I would like to have as my friend? Galadriel.

With whom I would like to sit down and have a deep conversation of things being and not-being? Galadriel.

Whom would I trust in any matter personal, local or global? Galadriel.

Whom will I vote?

++ Fëanor

He's just the perpetator unsurpassed, the maker of great stories, the one without whom we would not have all the tensions and richenss of the history of the M-E! If all the elves were like Galadriel there would be less drama and less truth in the whole story.

Fëanor is exciting even if he's a bully and a one-track-mind idiot in the end.

Morthoron · 11-27-2008, 07:48 PM

A tough one, surely (I know, you're not Shirley). Anyway, these are two of the most important characters in the books (for different reasons, obviously, Shirley).

I will have to go with ++Feanor, as almost the entire Silmarillion hinges on his creations and his actions. He is despicable, vengeful, obstinate, but so were many other artistic geniuses in the 'real world'. For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

So Feanor, the brooding master, called down the heavens to witness his folly, for he loved too much the work of his hands; and the course of Middle-earth was forever changed.

Groin Redbeard · 11-27-2008, 09:13 PM

Oh gosh, now it looks like going to have to vote for an elf.

++Galadriel

All the good reasons have been already said about her. There is nothing attractive about the fool of a king who leads his own people to misery. He is like a silver tongued dictator who sacrifices everyone for the sake of his own foolish ego.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman').

Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator and lead his entire race into misery.

mormegil · 11-27-2008, 11:52 PM

++Galadriel

The fact that she gave Gimli 3 hairs is all you need to know.

Morthoron · 11-28-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Michaelangelo didn't despise his creator...

Ah, but according to many fundamental Christians spewing their version of the Bible, his creator would despise Michelangelo for his homosexuality and send him to Hell. At least Tolkien granted a measure of forgiveness to Feanor at the end of all things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

and lead his entire race into misery.

And how many leaders profess an earnest love of their version of the creator, yet lead their race and the world into misery in spite of their avowed belief?

In any case, I don't recall Feanor actually despising his creator. Can you point to the text where that is stated?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-28-2008, 06:21 AM

When I opened the thread and saw somewhere "++Galadriel" (without yet reading the thread properly), I was clear on what is the choice for me

Of course, because of the sense of duty, I scrolled up and checked who the other candidate is - but I can hardly imagine a worthy competition here.

++Galadriel

And now I may as well go and read the arguments which people had for one or another here on this thread

Mithalwen · 11-28-2008, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If it was just occasional and not almost every Tolkien's woman character doing that, it would be alright. It annoys me that there seems to be no other way for a woman to be great than that. Except for Haleth.

What annoys me is that she has this crush on Aragorn whom she didn't know at all and then she makes such a fuss of being refused.
She should have been like the Swedish Queen Kristina. Really. Then I'd be happy.
Personally I don't think there's no chance a woman could be happy when married to a man.

However, it seems Éowyn didn't have any other option - she must marry because that's what women do. She fought against what was considered normal, and was put to her "proper" place in the end, no matter if she did it voluntarily or not. Just so she'd get a happy ending. Just like women who did something unconventional or immoral in very old novels were in the end accepted again as members of society, and got a nice marriage and such. It's too conservative for my taste.
Or then it's some cultural thing since I see all of us Finns have complained about it.

So you would have preferred her to be bitter and twisted like Erendis? Or ended up alone and unhappy? Rather a phyrric feminist victory. Remember Tolkien was originally going to kill her off which perhaps you would have preferred - though no doubt you would claim she was being punished for not staying in her box

. Which is usually the fate of women who rebel in he old novels I have read - Finnish ones maybe different. Women who don't know their place come to a bad end they don't marry the man who complements them perfectly.

There is absolutely no evidence that she had to marry at all. She could have said no and gone back to Rohan. Remember she goes back to Rohan to help Eomer sort the place out - hardly a conventional role. If you want to rail against conventional women have a pop at Arwen who is passive and has to be removed from Lorien when things got nasty and who will clearly be a much more conventional wife than Eowyn. You may not like the male domination in ME - I can't say I do, but it seems mean to take it out on Eowyn.

Oh I love Galadriel but bad boys are so fascinating.

++Feanor

11-27-2008, 02:22 PM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	++Galadriel. She might have something of the Margaret Thatcher about her, but she's endlessly fascinating. Whereas Feanor was a grade A spoilt brat who threw away his life/talent along with his dummy. __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-27-2008, 03:33 PM	#4
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	+ + Galadriel Feanor makes cool stuff and speaks real purtty, but as far politics and military strategy go he's dumb as a doorknob. Btw, I wonder if they have cable tv in the Halls of Mandos. If so it'd be interesting to see Feanor's reaction when (a dwarf!) gets three strands of Galadriel's hair. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

11-27-2008, 05:57 PM	#5
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	I'd have to go with ++Galadriel as well. Talented though he might be, Feanor had an ego that was more than a match for his gifts -- kinda like some of my more obnoxious relatives. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

11-27-2008, 07:48 PM	#7
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	A tough one, surely (I know, you're not Shirley). Anyway, these are two of the most important characters in the books (for different reasons, obviously, Shirley). I will have to go with ++Feanor, as almost the entire Silmarillion hinges on his creations and his actions. He is despicable, vengeful, obstinate, but so were many other artistic geniuses in the 'real world'. For instance, Michelangelo was such a cranky so-and-so that he famously snubbed the formidable Pope Julius II, nicknamed 'The Terrible Father'. He literally had to be dragged back to finish the Sistine Chapel (Raphael, who like Da Vinci had a falling out with Michelangelo, said he reminded him of a 'solitary hangman'). So Feanor, the brooding master, called down the heavens to witness his folly, for he loved too much the work of his hands; and the course of Middle-earth was forever changed. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

11-27-2008, 11:52 PM	#9
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	++Galadriel The fact that she gave Gimli 3 hairs is all you need to know. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

11-28-2008, 06:21 AM	#11
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	When I opened the thread and saw somewhere "++Galadriel" (without yet reading the thread properly), I was clear on what is the choice for me Of course, because of the sense of duty, I scrolled up and checked who the other candidate is - but I can hardly imagine a worthy competition here. ++Galadriel And now I may as well go and read the arguments which people had for one or another here on this thread __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories