Who was the old man?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If we take Gandalf's word that is was not he who appeared to the three, it must have been Saruman, whether physically present or not. To me, the presence of another old man who just happened to be in the area and refused Aragorn's offer of fire and company would strain credibility. I would be inclined to think he was actually there, looking for evidence of the Ring, or at least Merry and Pippin.

Of course it was Saruman, that is clear enough, and the reason for him being out there are just the ones you say. The only question is whether he'd be there in person or just as a phantom.

I have been little puzzled though, if I recall, didn't the old man smile at Aragorn&co? I could imagine that if he found the Orcs dead, and presumed them having the Ring first, he would be scared to death! (Now somebody surely has the Ring - who? Sauron? The Rohirrim? These three guys???) He acted very calm. Okay, maybe that would speak also for that not being Saruman in person - this was just a harmless phantom, Saruman in flesh and blood would have shown the three guys some of his power to get them to answer his questions (or hand over the Ring). The only thing I can think of about stopping a live Saruman from doing that is that he would be more afraid of the three guys than he gave away, possibly afraid of them having the Ring and being powerful enough to use it against them? Or that he thought them merely "some three wanderers", which would be most weird, though: and Elf and a Dwarf, and just by chance close to the place where the Orcs were killed. If he was scared of them, I could imagine him at least scaring away their horses, if he couldn't do anything else. But I find it now actually more probable (after thinking about it) that it was really just a phantom of Saruman, not Saruman himself (although until this far, I presumed it was Saruman, without giving it much thought).

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Saruman was a phantom he had made this phantom with such perfection it was taken from flesh and blood which would mean he'd have to make a lot of noise or some great display to scare war horses off. I think rather Saruman (or phantom) was just out wandering about like he was prone to do.

I think actually the phantom, if it was "done well", may have scared the horses pretty well. He came to them and said "boo boo" and lit his eyes, and there was most likely something unnatural to be felt about the phantom just because it was a phantom. So, if the animals could feel the phantom at all (which they must have, as they reacted - of course all this is done with the assumption that it was indeed a phantom), they would have been very likely to feel something unnatural about it, thus, be far more easily scared. And remember for example the Hobbits' ponies on the Barrow-Downs: they, unlike their masters, knew far better not to get near to the Barrow-Wights, and this may have been a similar thing for the horses.

Originally Posted by alatar

Or maybe it was Tom Bombadil's shyer brother...

Older brother, eh? Oh no, wait... TB is "Eldest"... in that case, younger brother. Ha, what does it mean then? The Bombadils' look the older, the younger they are! A very interesting contribution to the obscure topic of Bombadilology.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Saruman was, I think, almost certainly not there in person,
but projecting some sort of wraith

Projecting? Hmm... "Lord Uglúk?" "Yes, Master." "We have a new enemy. The young Hobbit who destroyed the Death Star..."

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I have been little puzzled though, if I recall, didn't the old man smile at Aragorn&co? I could imagine that if he found the Orcs dead, and presumed them having the Ring first, he would be scared to death! (Now somebody surely has the Ring - who? Sauron? The Rohirrim? These three guys???)

Maybe Radagast was just out screwing with the minds of everyone. He was friendly with animals, so perhaps he was out doing a PETA type thing and freeing the horses of Rohan from their bonds.

they would have been very likely to feel something unnatural about it, thus, be far more easily scared.

True but horses make noise when they're scared, neighing, whinnying, stamping of hooves. The horses breaking free is a mystery. Personally I don't think they were scared off. I'm no master on the subject of horses, but I've seen spooked horses and unless the hunters slept like rocks I'd think they'd notice something.

This is quite baffling and it's going to bother me all day. The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked. In which case it would have a Gandalf phantom, but unless Gandalf phantom's appears randomly at its own will I doubt the old man was part of Gandalf.

Maybe alatar is right and it is Bombadil's shy brother. Or it was those pesky elf teens out for a good time again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked.

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?

I just think Saruman would continue with his usual habits until some form of desperation sets in. And that point he has no reason to be desperate enough to go out and break old habits. I realize how silly the hat is, but I feel it wouldn't have been mentioned if it weren't important. If Saruman decided to make a fashion statement and throw on his old hat there wouldn't be so much mystery surrounding the old man. Stupid as it may sound.

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.

Lucky for Sarah Palin Radagast wasn't in Alaska last Thanksgiving.

[Alfirin]

The Radagast possiblity raises an interesting point. Gandalf says, time and time again that he and Saruman look very alike, or at least, that Saruman would have no trouble whatsoever in looking just like him. This brings up the question, does Radagast also resemble Gandalf so closely, closely enough that he could be mistaken for him? As far as I know, no one in the fellowship, except for Gandalf himself, has actually ever seen Radagast, (though, since Radagast lives near Mirkwoods southern borders, there is a slight chance Legolas has.) Maybe, in the eyes of mere mortal all Ishtari resemble each other a great deal. I have usally though of Radagast as looking a lot younger than Gandalf with a beard that, while long has not yet greyed (maybe it the color, brown wizard, brown beard), but then I usally (Christopher Lee or no Christopher Lee) imagine Saruman as looking a lot younger and better preseved than Gandalf, at bit stockier and with a beard that is much shorter and bushier (imagine a somewhat slimmed down Santa Claus, and you'll have the rough idea) an old man to whome the years apper to have been kinder than they have to Gandalf.
If it is Radagast, then maybe, he is wandering around, keeping an eye on the travelers. Radagast would know Saruman has turned (If nothing else, Gwahir would have likey told him when he left Gandalf, or at least the next time the two of them came in contact.) He might even know about the loss of Gandalf in Moria (say, from a bird who overheard it in Lothlorien or somwhere else along the Fellowships path). the "hiding in the shadows" may simply be because he fears the reprocussions of open rebellion against Saruman (I get the feeling that Radagast is no where near as powerful as Saruman, at least in terms of open one on one conflict.) so he hides in the background, and does what he can to help the fellowship. The freeing of the horses is odd, but maybe it's his attempt to minimize the chances of the hunters detection. Horses may make travel faster, but they also leave a much more obvios trail than three on foot (at least two of whom are skilled in woodcraft). It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).

The truth here is that knobody knew for sure, not even Gandalf. The only certainty was that it was not Gandalf. But given the symbolic and prophetic warning of the disguise of Saruman by Eomer, the reaction of the 3 hunters when the old man appeared, and of course, Gandalf's guess, it all pointed out to being Saruman. A clever ploy by Tolkein, to stir the reader with fear or uncertainty over a mysterious connotation. Aragorn did not stir too much on the arrival of the old man, however, as it would take much more than this to cause alarm to a Ranger, who already had enough courage to chase off the Lord of the Nazgul and 4 of his servants at night.

[CSteefel]

What I find confusing is that Gandalf says that the old man was not him, but the appearance of the old man is also (apparently) linked with the horses running off. As pointed out, however, the horses were in fact not scared away at all, but were overjoyed to encounter Shadowfax. These two events seem to be linked, but one points to Gandalf (or at least to his horse), the other to somebody other than Gandalf.

This whole issue is made a bit more ambiguous by he fact that there is some blurring of Gandalf's and Saruman's roles as the White Wizard when Aragorn and company encounter him later in Fangorn...

Still, one has to accept Gandalf's emphatic statement that what they saw was certainly not him. In addition, there is no reason why Gandalf would not have revealed himself to the company at this stage if it was him. So the phantom of Saruman seems most reasonable...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

This is quite baffling and it's going to bother me all day. The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked. In which case it would have a Gandalf phantom, but unless Gandalf phantom's appears randomly at its own will I doubt the old man was part of Gandalf.

What a disguise?! Saruman puts on a hat and no one can figure out who he is.

But it could be some kind of wizard-walk after effect (i.e. Gandalf could travel faster than one would expect).