Who was the old man? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-02-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked.

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?

Kitanna · 12-02-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?

I just think Saruman would continue with his usual habits until some form of desperation sets in. And that point he has no reason to be desperate enough to go out and break old habits. I realize how silly the hat is, but I feel it wouldn't have been mentioned if it weren't important. If Saruman decided to make a fashion statement and throw on his old hat there wouldn't be so much mystery surrounding the old man. Stupid as it may sound.

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.

Tuor in Gondolin · 12-02-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.

Lucky for Sarah Palin Radagast wasn't in Alaska last Thanksgiving.

Alfirin · 12-02-2008, 03:07 PM

The Radagast possiblity raises an interesting point. Gandalf says, time and time again that he and Saruman look very alike, or at least, that Saruman would have no trouble whatsoever in looking just like him. This brings up the question, does Radagast also resemble Gandalf so closely, closely enough that he could be mistaken for him? As far as I know, no one in the fellowship, except for Gandalf himself, has actually ever seen Radagast, (though, since Radagast lives near Mirkwoods southern borders, there is a slight chance Legolas has.) Maybe, in the eyes of mere mortal all Ishtari resemble each other a great deal. I have usally though of Radagast as looking a lot younger than Gandalf with a beard that, while long has not yet greyed (maybe it the color, brown wizard, brown beard), but then I usally (Christopher Lee or no Christopher Lee) imagine Saruman as looking a lot younger and better preseved than Gandalf, at bit stockier and with a beard that is much shorter and bushier (imagine a somewhat slimmed down Santa Claus, and you'll have the rough idea) an old man to whome the years apper to have been kinder than they have to Gandalf.
If it is Radagast, then maybe, he is wandering around, keeping an eye on the travelers. Radagast would know Saruman has turned (If nothing else, Gwahir would have likey told him when he left Gandalf, or at least the next time the two of them came in contact.) He might even know about the loss of Gandalf in Moria (say, from a bird who overheard it in Lothlorien or somwhere else along the Fellowships path). the "hiding in the shadows" may simply be because he fears the reprocussions of open rebellion against Saruman (I get the feeling that Radagast is no where near as powerful as Saruman, at least in terms of open one on one conflict.) so he hides in the background, and does what he can to help the fellowship. The freeing of the horses is odd, but maybe it's his attempt to minimize the chances of the hunters detection. Horses may make travel faster, but they also leave a much more obvios trail than three on foot (at least two of whom are skilled in woodcraft). It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).

12-02-2008, 04:59 PM

The truth here is that knobody knew for sure, not even Gandalf. The only certainty was that it was not Gandalf. But given the symbolic and prophetic warning of the disguise of Saruman by Eomer, the reaction of the 3 hunters when the old man appeared, and of course, Gandalf's guess, it all pointed out to being Saruman. A clever ploy by Tolkein, to stir the reader with fear or uncertainty over a mysterious connotation. Aragorn did not stir too much on the arrival of the old man, however, as it would take much more than this to cause alarm to a Ranger, who already had enough courage to chase off the Lord of the Nazgul and 4 of his servants at night.

CSteefel · 12-02-2008, 09:30 PM

What I find confusing is that Gandalf says that the old man was not him, but the appearance of the old man is also (apparently) linked with the horses running off. As pointed out, however, the horses were in fact not scared away at all, but were overjoyed to encounter Shadowfax. These two events seem to be linked, but one points to Gandalf (or at least to his horse), the other to somebody other than Gandalf.

This whole issue is made a bit more ambiguous by he fact that there is some blurring of Gandalf's and Saruman's roles as the White Wizard when Aragorn and company encounter him later in Fangorn...

Still, one has to accept Gandalf's emphatic statement that what they saw was certainly not him. In addition, there is no reason why Gandalf would not have revealed himself to the company at this stage if it was him. So the phantom of Saruman seems most reasonable...

The Might · 12-03-2008, 08:02 AM

I really doubt it was Saruman, as no matter how much he feared them, I doubt it would be too much for him to not try to get the Ring. It was the object of his desires and so if he thought the Three Hunters may have it, he would have surely attacked. Of course, he may have sensed that the Ring was not near and so decided to make an exit.

A phantom also seems somewhat unlikely, although if Saruman had indeed studied the dark arts he may have learned something on this topic. Maybe he just looked into the palantir and thought "ah well, could at least try to annoy them with a spooky ghost".

What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know.
But it does somewaht make sense - Gandalf informed Radagast to tell all the birds and beasts in Mirkwood to round up information on the actions of the Enemy on Midsummer's Day. On September 18 Gwaihir bearing news to Isengard found Gandalf imprisoned. In that time Radagast went to Mirkwood, probably to Rhosgobel and sent out the word and from there it wasn't that far to the eaves of Mirkwood. Especially by taking the Redhorn route he could have made it that far.

The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.

alatar · 12-03-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know.

The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.

I don't think that it could be Radagast for the following reasons:

The Brown One rarely, if ever, traveled.

Of all the Istari, only Gandalf holds true. If Radagast were to take an active role in the War of the Ring, then he too wouldn't be a failure.

If Radagast were to have entered Fangorn, even briefly, Treebeard would have known of it. Gandalf may have too. And yet, when Gandalf is later questioned, he fails to mention Radagast? Not likely...

Radagast would not have driven off the horses. They would have liked seeing him almost as much as Shadowfax as he could speak with them.

Why would he make such a journey/appearance and yet do nothing?!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).

You may have it exactly backwards. Orcs would have attacked three humanoids as, as Peter Jackson's orcs would have said, "Fellas, meat's back on the menu!" They would have been less inclined to attack the Rohirrim, especially after being routed - and if they weren't part of the ones heading for Orthanc, surely they would have known enough about the horse boys to fear them. Anyway...

So I'm still saying it was Saruman. He had no woodcraft, and knew that his Uruks were bringing hobbits to him, and so he appears, albeit clumsily, in Fangorn's edge. Wasn't this the whole reason a little later he unleashes Isengard on Theoden, thinking that one of those horse boys may have carried a ring back to Edoras?

And doesn't someone mention something like, 'for once, Saruman came too late?'

12-02-2008, 04:59 PM	#5
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	The truth here is that knobody knew for sure, not even Gandalf. The only certainty was that it was not Gandalf. But given the symbolic and prophetic warning of the disguise of Saruman by Eomer, the reaction of the 3 hunters when the old man appeared, and of course, Gandalf's guess, it all pointed out to being Saruman. A clever ploy by Tolkein, to stir the reader with fear or uncertainty over a mysterious connotation. Aragorn did not stir too much on the arrival of the old man, however, as it would take much more than this to cause alarm to a Ranger, who already had enough courage to chase off the Lord of the Nazgul and 4 of his servants at night. Last edited by Mansun; 12-02-2008 at 05:19 PM.

12-02-2008, 09:30 PM	#6
CSteefel Wight Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 204	What I find confusing is that Gandalf says that the old man was not him, but the appearance of the old man is also (apparently) linked with the horses running off. As pointed out, however, the horses were in fact not scared away at all, but were overjoyed to encounter Shadowfax. These two events seem to be linked, but one points to Gandalf (or at least to his horse), the other to somebody other than Gandalf. This whole issue is made a bit more ambiguous by he fact that there is some blurring of Gandalf's and Saruman's roles as the White Wizard when Aragorn and company encounter him later in Fangorn... Still, one has to accept Gandalf's emphatic statement that what they saw was certainly not him. In addition, there is no reason why Gandalf would not have revealed himself to the company at this stage if it was him. So the phantom of Saruman seems most reasonable... __________________ `These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.'

12-03-2008, 08:02 AM	#7
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I really doubt it was Saruman, as no matter how much he feared them, I doubt it would be too much for him to not try to get the Ring. It was the object of his desires and so if he thought the Three Hunters may have it, he would have surely attacked. Of course, he may have sensed that the Ring was not near and so decided to make an exit. A phantom also seems somewhat unlikely, although if Saruman had indeed studied the dark arts he may have learned something on this topic. Maybe he just looked into the palantir and thought "ah well, could at least try to annoy them with a spooky ghost". What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know. But it does somewaht make sense - Gandalf informed Radagast to tell all the birds and beasts in Mirkwood to round up information on the actions of the Enemy on Midsummer's Day. On September 18 Gwaihir bearing news to Isengard found Gandalf imprisoned. In that time Radagast went to Mirkwood, probably to Rhosgobel and sent out the word and from there it wasn't that far to the eaves of Mirkwood. Especially by taking the Redhorn route he could have made it that far. The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-02-2008, 03:07 PM	#4
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	The Radagast possiblity raises an interesting point. Gandalf says, time and time again that he and Saruman look very alike, or at least, that Saruman would have no trouble whatsoever in looking just like him. This brings up the question, does Radagast also resemble Gandalf so closely, closely enough that he could be mistaken for him? As far as I know, no one in the fellowship, except for Gandalf himself, has actually ever seen Radagast, (though, since Radagast lives near Mirkwoods southern borders, there is a slight chance Legolas has.) Maybe, in the eyes of mere mortal all Ishtari resemble each other a great deal. I have usally though of Radagast as looking a lot younger than Gandalf with a beard that, while long has not yet greyed (maybe it the color, brown wizard, brown beard), but then I usally (Christopher Lee or no Christopher Lee) imagine Saruman as looking a lot younger and better preseved than Gandalf, at bit stockier and with a beard that is much shorter and bushier (imagine a somewhat slimmed down Santa Claus, and you'll have the rough idea) an old man to whome the years apper to have been kinder than they have to Gandalf. If it is Radagast, then maybe, he is wandering around, keeping an eye on the travelers. Radagast would know Saruman has turned (If nothing else, Gwahir would have likey told him when he left Gandalf, or at least the next time the two of them came in contact.) He might even know about the loss of Gandalf in Moria (say, from a bird who overheard it in Lothlorien or somwhere else along the Fellowships path). the "hiding in the shadows" may simply be because he fears the reprocussions of open rebellion against Saruman (I get the feeling that Radagast is no where near as powerful as Saruman, at least in terms of open one on one conflict.) so he hides in the background, and does what he can to help the fellowship. The freeing of the horses is odd, but maybe it's his attempt to minimize the chances of the hunters detection. Horses may make travel faster, but they also leave a much more obvios trail than three on foot (at least two of whom are skilled in woodcraft). It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).