Ring of fire, Ring of Air, Ring of ?

[The Might]

I believe that this other discussion going may need a thread of its own as it is going quite off-topic, although interesting to read.

So yeah, back to the idea with the elements.
You say that not considering the other Rings in connection to earth and aether makes the scheme less perfect, but then again Vilya's greater power already makes the scheme imperfect, something strange when talking about classical elements in perfect balance.

It just doesn't add up for me, I have more reason to think against an intended balance of elements within the Rings of Power.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Might

I believe that this other discussion going may need a thread of its own as it is going quite off-topic, although interesting to read.

I agree. How is in normally done on this forum? Is there a mod with big scissors who comes and cuts the thread in two? Or should we open a new thead ourselves and repost the relevant bits? I need an advice, so I shall wait with my reply to Morthoron ans Alfirin.

Originally Posted by The Might

It just doesn't add up for me, I have more reason to think against an intended balance of elements within the Rings of Power.

Well, you can't deny that the Three are connected with the elements: it is canon. So, the connection of the other rings with the elements makes sense. The major problem had been that it was next to impossible to establish such connection with four elements, but quite possible with five. That is about all I wanted to say: I have no data that Tolkien had such connection in mind.

Another thing: the stones of the Three match the fates of the three Silmarils: one perished in the fire by Maedhros, one cast in the sea by Maglor, and one sailing in the air with Eärendil. Perhaps it is this way that the elements came into play at the stage when Celebrimbor alone was making the Three. Maybe the elements as such weren't even considered when Annatar and Celebrimbor were discussing the Ring-project.

Originally Posted by The Might

So yeah, back to the idea with the elements.
You say that not considering the other Rings in connection to earth and aether makes the scheme less perfect, but then again Vilya's greater power already makes the scheme imperfect, something strange when talking about classical elements in perfect balance.

In Arda some of the Valar are connected with the elements: Manwe with Air, Ulmo with water, Aule with fire, Yavanna with Earth, Mandos with the Spirit World. And of them all, Manwe is the mightiest, just as the Ring of Air is the mightiest of the Three.

By the way, Vilya is called "the mightiest of the Three" - LOTR "The Grey Havens", yet in UT "Galadriel and Celeborn" Nenya is called the Chief of the Three . So, it doesn't seem that the Rings varied in power very much, otherwise there won't have been such confusion.
Personally, I believe that it was Nenya that was the masterpiece of Celebrimbor's craft, even if it was not the strongest of the Rings. He made it all alone as a gift for the woman he hopelessly loved: no doubt it was the most perfect of his creations. He chose for it pure Mithril instead of "sullied" Gold, he adorned it with adamant, the most spectacular of stones. Nenya was associated with water, and thus with Ulmo, who alone of all the 14 Valar cared for the exiled Noldor, never abandoning them.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I agree. How is in normally done on this forum? Is there a mod with big scissors who comes and cuts the thread in two? Or should we open a new thead ourselves and repost the relevant bits?

Please open a new thread and repost the relevant bits. Cutting those posts or parts of them from this thread would be tricky at best, because they contain points that are relevant to this discussion as well.

[Gordis]

Thanks, Estelyn.

The new thread on the future nazgul is HERE and the side-discussion is being relocated there.

[Tar-Maglor]

Good question, mate. I personally don't think Celebrimbor would have made a fourth ring. The epitome of elvish artifaction were Feanor's Silmarils, and they were each associated with air, fire, and water. Also, I believe Feanor was Celebrimbor's grandfather, so I think Celebrimbor would have followed in that tradition.
~Cheers!

[Mithalwen]

I agree that the Three elven rings mirror the fate of the silmarils cast in to fire and water and borne up in the air. Earth seems a bit too static and somehow it seems to me that since the stones and metal came from earth, earth didn't need a ring... but that is just my impression. As for the Elessar, there are various versions of its origins but the ethos behind it is different. It was always intendend to be and instrument of healing power rather than commanding power so I don't quite see it fitting in with the rings.

[Lollipop010900]

I think that maybe Tolkein had the idea that fire, water and air made up the earth, meaning that there was no need for a fourth ring because the other three already fixed the problem. Also, in the poem about the rings, it says, "Three for the elven kings under the sky." If there were FOUR rings then the poem would go thus, "Four for the elven kings under the sky." Which doesn't sound anywhere near as good.