Gandalf in the 2nd Millennium of the Third Age

[Gordis]

The Witch-King certainly was among those who besieged Gandalf at Weathertop. The scene is described in Marquette MSS 4/2/36 "the Hunt for the Ring" published in RC p.167-8.

[On 2 October the four Black Riders who were sent ahead] assemble near Weathertop. [One] remains [while three] go on eastwards on or near Road. ... Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force.
[The five] follow Gandalf hotly to Weathertop. Since Gandalf halts there, [the Witch-King] suspects that that is a trysting place.
Gandalf is attacked by [the five plus the rider who had stayed near Weathertop] on Weathertop on night 3-4. Frodo and Aragorn see the light of the battle in the sky from their camp.
Oct. 4: Gandalf repulses the Nazgûl and escapes northwards at Sunrise, and follows the Hoarwell up towards the mountains. [Four Riders] are sent in pursuit (mainly because [the Witch-king] thinks it possible he may know of the whereabouts or course of the Bearer). But [the Witch-king and Khamûl] remain watching Weathertop. Thus they become aware of the approach of Frodo on Oct. 5. [The other three] return from East.

Now to the quote given by Ibrin("But our trial of strength is not yet come." ).
I think we must distinguish between the passing confrontations the WK and Gandalf have had before and the real "trial of strength", a fight to death that was about to happen at the Gates of Minas Tirith.

Gandalf the Grey had limitations imposed by the Valar :

[the Wizards] came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.- TY, LOTR

So to go to Carn-Dum, find its King and try to kill him in a direct duel would have been strongly against the rules. All Gandal'f did at Weathertop and likely in similar situations before, was defend himself, when attacked, and then withdraw at the first opportunity. It was never a real "trial of strength".

In the same, almost anonymous, way Gandalf took part in battles. For instance in the battle of the Five Armies Gandalf was even wounded in the arm (see "the Hobbit"), but nothing about his part in the battle found its way into the "Tale of Years". He was there, but he was not in command, he displayed no supernatural powers, confronted no enemy commanders. This example shows that Gandalf may well have been say in the Battle of Fornost or in the battle of the Camps etc, without it being mentioned in the chronicles. Gandalf the Grey had been a self-effacing guy, always there somewhere in the background.

But that modus operendi changes when Gandalf turns the White. To start with, he shows his power to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, a thing that G the Grey had never done before. He assumes the command of the defense of Minas Tirith; in an open display of power Gandalf chases the nazgul attacking Faramir, and, finally, he openly challenges the enemy commander, the Lord of the Nazgul, the right hand of Sauron.

To me it seems that most of the limitations originally imposed on Gandalf the Grey by the Valar were lifted by Eru, when Gandalf was sent back. It is never told directly, IIRC, but it seems to be the case.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think it might also be possible that during the siege at Weathertop, the WK operated by Sauron's "wisdom," driving his men (such as they are) from behind rather than leading the fray, and he simply never got to the front before the confrontation ended, or truly entered into direct combat with Gandalf. Perhaps he considered himself a much better tactician/strategist, and felt the strength of the others would be adequate to the situation while he directed their efforts.

Well, it's a thought.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think it might also be possible that during the siege at Weathertop, the WK operated by Sauron's "wisdom," driving his men (such as they are) from behind rather than leading the fray, and he simply never got to the front before the confrontation ended, or truly entered into direct combat with Gandalf. Perhaps he considered himself a much better tactician/strategist, and felt the strength of the others would be adequate to the situation while he directed their efforts.

The WK certainly operated by Sauron's "wisdom," so praised by Denethor, when he had orcs to spare as "cannon-fodder". But in all fairness, we don't have a single occasion when he had done the same to his fellow nazgul. Among the Nine, he was always at the forefront.

It was the WK who "swept away" the Rangers at the ford, it was the WK+2 others who guarded the borders of the Shire and Bree-Land against the possible attack by Elves or Rangers (RC).

At Weathertop there were five nazgul: two remained at the lip of the dell, three advanced on the being who wore the One Ring - which was, by the way, almost a sacrilege for a nazgul - see Letter 246:

Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility.

. When Frodo bared his perilous for the nazgul Barrow-blade, burning red in the Spirit World, two nazgul stopped, and it was only the WK who dared attack Frodo.

At the Ford of Bruinen, the WK was foremost across it, followed by two others, while the rest remained on the safe bank.
At the Pelennor, the WK was at the gates alone, while he could easily bring the rest of the nazgul with him. Same when he attacked Theoden (and that self-assurance had proved his undoing).

So, I don't see the WK remaining in the background while sending the weaker nazgul to fight Gandalf.

Also I don't see the "siege" of Weathertop as plain swordfight. I don't think the enemies even came into direct contact - likely it was a magick battle with lightnings etc., where only the WK was able to match Gandalf's magick (or attempt to). The objective of the nazgul was to drive Gandalf away, preventing him from joining the company with the Ring, not to kill him at all costs. This objective they had fulfilled. I think it was evident for the nazgul that they could only kill Gandalf at the cost of some of their own lives, and they were not ready to pay such price.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The WK certainly operated by Sauron's "wisdom," so praised by Denethor, when he had orcs to spare as "cannon-fodder". But in all fairness, we don't have a single occasion when he had done the same to his fellow nazgul. Among the Nine, he was always at the forefront.

It was the WK who "swept away" the Rangers at the ford, it was the WK+2 others who guarded the borders of the Shire and Bree-Land against the possible attack by Elves or Rangers (RC).

At Weathertop there were five nazgul: two remained at the lip of the dell, three advanced on the being who wore the One Ring - which was, by the way, almost a sacrilege for a nazgul - see Letter 246: . When Frodo bared his perilous for the nazgul Barrow-blade, burning red in the Spirit World, two nazgul stopped, and it was only the WK who dared attack Frodo.

At the Ford of Bruinen, the WK was foremost across it, followed by two others, while the rest remained on the safe bank.
At the Pelennor, the WK was at the gates alone, while he could easily bring the rest of the nazgul with him. Same when he attacked Theoden (and that self-assurance had proved his undoing).

So, I don't see the WK remaining in the background while sending the weaker nazgul to fight Gandalf.

Also I don't see the "siege" of Weathertop as plain swordfight. I don't think the enemies even came into direct contact - likely it was a magick battle with lightnings etc., where only the WK was able to match Gandalf's magick (or attempt to). The objective of the nazgul was to drive Gandalf away, preventing him from joining the company with the Ring, not to kill him at all costs. This objective they had fulfilled. I think it was evident for the nazgul that they could only kill Gandalf at the cost of some of their own lives, and they were not ready to pay such price.

I don't think the WK was hanging behind the other Nazgul, and he was certainly ready to advance when the opponents were much weaker than himself. But he did withdraw on several occasions, the first being the time in the Second Age when Glorfindel drove him off, and then again when Glorfindel drove him off the bridge.

I agree that the attack of the Nine on Weathertop did not involve an all out fight, which as you say may have ended in several participants not surviving, but at least 4 of the Nazgul did follow Gandalf, so I think it was something beyond just driving him off Weathertop. Initially all of the Nine withdrew when Gandalf appeared during the daylight, but of course only the WK had anything resembling his normal power under these circumstances.

Recall also that later Gandalf drove off the Nazgul on the Fields of Pelennor when they chased Faramir and his company. The final faceoff was to come at the Gates of the City, where Peter Jackson has interpreted (incorrectly, IMO) the matchup as turning in the favor of the WK. Another argument would suggest that the WK here again felt himself overmatched, otherwise why not finish Gandalf when he had the chance. I suspect it would have been quite a battle, partly because the WK's power had been augmented by Sauron, but then again Gandalf had apparently been augmented as well with his return

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I don't think the WK was hanging behind the other Nazgul, and he was certainly ready to advance when the opponents were much weaker than himself. But he did withdraw on several occasions, the first being the time in the Second Age when Glorfindel drove him off, and then again when Glorfindel drove him off the bridge.

The Witch-King advanced even when the opponents were stronger (like Gandalf) or could present a good challenge (like Earnur, who was the best fighter in Gondor - and note: it was before Glorfindel's prophecy). Frodo as well, as weak as he may have seemed, was not an easy opponent: a nazgul had to have enough guts to attack the wielder of the One Ring. Moreover Frodo had a special blade - for the nazgul he was like a small, deadly poisonous viper.

Indeed, the WK always retreated before Glorfindel, but then again he never sent weaker nazgul to try their hand against the Elf Lord. All the Nine retreated before Glorfindel, because of his special powers in the Unseen, I guess.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

I agree that the attack of the Nine on Weathertop did not involve an all out fight, which as you say may have ended in several participants not surviving, but at least 4 of the Nazgul did follow Gandalf, so I think it was something beyond just driving him off Weathertop.

The reason given in the Hunt for the Ring is this:

Oct. 4: Gandalf repulses the Nazgûl and escapes northwards at Sunrise, and follows the Hoarwell up towards the mountains. [Four Riders] are sent in pursuit (mainly because [the Witch-king] thinks it possible he may know of the whereabouts or course of the Bearer).RC, p. 167-8

There was a possibility that Gandalf would lead them to the Ring.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Recall also that later Gandalf drove off the Nazgul on the Fields of Pelennor when they chased Faramir and his company. The final faceoff was to come at the Gates of the City, where Peter Jackson has interpreted (incorrectly, IMO) the matchup as turning in the favor of the WK. Another argument would suggest that the WK here again felt himself overmatched, otherwise why not finish Gandalf when he had the chance. I suspect it would have been quite a battle, partly because the WK's power had been augmented by Sauron, but then again Gandalf had apparently been augmented as well with his return

It would have been quite a battle with uncertain result and a good possibility of being fatal for both opponents. I guess the WK felt himself overmatched, but couldn't withdraw because Sauron was watching him. He took the first opportunity to excuse himself. But still, again, he didn't summon the other nazgul to help him.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also I don't see the "siege" of Weathertop as plain swordfight.

Neither do I, given the description of the flashes of light and apparent scorch-marks on the hilltop. In that instance, I suspect the Nazgul were not interested in killing Gandalf, but in capturing him, or -- possibly more likely -- provoking him into running to protect whoever had the Ring so that they might follow. I strongly suspect they never got within fifty feet of each other. But I still have a feeling that the Witch King would happily throw his fellow Nazgul under the bus, if it came to a "me or them" situation.

I don't even want to think about the confrontation at the gate. Jackson's version of it has left a rather disgusting goo in my brain for years.

[CSteefel]

Can't disagree with anything in the two posts above, with the possible exception of Earnur's retreat from the Witch King. I read Earnur's flight as actually due to his horse, in fact it is said:

...Earnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onslaught, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.

As we seea few years later when he goes to take the challenge of the WK, Earnur was brave to the point of being foolhardy, so one would not have expected him to flee willingly.

But as you say, the Nazgul mission at Weathertop was to retrieve the Ring, so a battle with Gandalf was not really to their advantage here.

On the subject of Gandalf again, I am also struck by some remarks by Aragorn as they are entering Moria that suggest that perhaps Gandalf had been up to more than we know in the past

Do not be afraid! I have been with him on many a journey, if never on one so dark; and there are tales of Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any that I have seen.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Can't disagree with anything in the two posts above, with the possible exception of Earnur's retreat from the Witch King. I read Earnur's flight as actually due to his horse, in fact it is said:

As we see few years later when he goes to take the challenge of the WK, Earnur was brave to the point of being foolhardy, so one would not have expected him to flee willingly.

That is what I meant: Earnur was a worthy opponent for the WK, certainly not an easy kill - but the WK didn't hesitate to challenge him to a duel in the battle of 1975. The Nazgul Lord did have courage.

Originally Posted by IIbrîniðilpathânezel

But I still have a feeling that the Witch King would happily throw his fellow Nazgul under the bus, if it came to a "me or them" situation.

Ha- nazgul psychology question! We really know next to nothing about the nazgul interrelationships...

What we see in the "Hunt for the Ring" (RC), is that whenever a lesser nazgul has problems, is upset, or uncertain what to do, his first impulse is to go report to the WK/ to cry on his shoulder, abandoning his assigned tasks. This attitude of the subordinates irritates the Captain.

When the Captain himself is upset (like after Weathertop), he doesn't go to the others seeking sympathy, but hides to suffer alone, and reappears only after he feels OK again. The others, meanwhile, do nothing on their own:

It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. [...]
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.
Oct. 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew [the other four] back to him. RC p.180

Actually, I guess, it is a normal attitude of a commander of a small close-knit group, don't you think?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

On the subject of Gandalf again, I am also struck by some remarks by Aragorn as they are entering Moria that suggest that perhaps Gandalf had been up to more than we know in the past

Do not be afraid! I have been with him on many a journey, if never on one so dark; and there are tales of Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any that I have seen.

This is precisely what is so intriguing about Tolkien. His story is so vast, yet there are always vistas further off that we yearn to see up close. I'd love to read a complete history of Gandalf's travels, just as I would like to hear more of Aragorn as Thorongil (written by Tolkien, and not in a fan-fic, of course).

*sniffs*

Alas, alack, the professor aint comin' back!

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It was never a real "trial of strength".

I would agree with this--it seems Gandalf was defending himself and the Witch King was hanging back. For all of the pumping up of the Witch King (too many viewings of the movies), he hangs back or retreats most of the time (Glorfindel drove him off the bridge a few days later).

So I took Gandalf's statement that the trial of strength was yet to come as an accurate description of his and the WK's history. As you mentioned, Gandalf was expressly forbidden from taking a more aggressive role when he was Gandalf the Grey--the situation does seem to change when he comes back as Gandalf the White (which Denethor evidently does not appreciate).