Patriotism and the Lord of the Rings

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

The question that Abers put forth about Theoden is interesting indeed. Groin sugests that it is because monarchy is the only thing known to inhabitans of Rohan, that might be, but I am not intirely convinced by the argument. Through history there have been plenty of cases where Kings have been overthrown, not to introduce a new system, but to introduce a new king. Obvious he would need to have some sort of claim to the throne, but those could be fabricated. . .
If Rohan had been truly patriotic, then surely they would overthrow their king who was under the influence of a foregin power?

It seems that allegiance often lies with the royal families and other overlords and not so much to a country. . .at least that is the view I have.

The elves surely are not patriotic. They have fought for personal gain and against a common enemy, but I have yet to see any sign of true patriotism.

I would like to say more, but I have so many thoughts I need to process, especially about Elves and Gondor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

do you not find it interesting that in the play Henry V there is an entire scene where the king's dialogue is in French?

Actually a scene where the king, once, attempts to communicate with Katherine in astoundingly *bad* French, which is the point:

"I will tell thee in French, which I am sure will hang upon my tongue like a new-married wife about her husband's neck, hardly to be shook off. Je quand sur le possession de France, et quand vous avez le possession de moi - let me see, what then? St Denis be my speed! -done votre est France et vous etes mienne. It is as easy for me, Kate, to conquer the kingdom as to speak so much more French. I shall never move thee in French, unless it be to laugh at me."

Of course Will is taking licence: the real Henry spoke perfectly good French.

(Plantagent: yes, from Geoffrey comte d'Anjou- but it remained the English royal surname down to Bosworth Field).

Taxes increased due to resulting lack of funds being siphoned from France, and the spiralling inflation led to the Peasant Revolt under Wat Tyler and John Ball.

together with the Black Death and the resultant ill-considered Statute of Labourers....

Moving back in time, though: I doubt that even the fyrd at Hastings was devoid of patriotism, or at least a recognition that their freedom was under threat from a foreign culture and political system (as it was).

Sure, the Free Companies were hyenas- but they preyed on French (including nominal English subjects when they could get away with it). The rise of patriotism runs in parallel with the rise of nation-states of a more-or-less ethno-linguistic character. While mercenaries were employed in most wars from the medieval period right down to the modern age, the two conflicts characterized by armies composed almost entirely of mercenaries were the arenas in which national formation had been arrested: Renaissance Italy and the Thirty Years' War.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Actually a scene where the king, once, attempts to communicate with Katherine in astoundingly *bad* French, which is the point:

Of course Will is taking licence: the real Henry spoke perfectly good French..

Nevertheless, as I've noted, it wasn't until Harry's reign in the 15th century that English became the official language of England.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Moving back in time, though: I doubt that even the fyrd at Hastings was devoid of patriotism, or at least a recognition that their freedom was under threat from a foreign culture and political system (as it was).

Was it patriotism to England or loyalty to Harold? Heck, Harold's own brother, Tostig, sold out, and there was dissent in the north in favor of Harald Hardrada. It was not a unified 'England' that William the Bastard invaded.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Sure, the Free Companies were hyenas- but they preyed on French (including nominal English subjects when they could get away with it). The rise of patriotism runs in parallel with the rise of nation-states of a more-or-less ethno-linguistic character. While mercenaries were employed in most wars from the medieval period right down to the modern age, the two conflicts characterized by armies composed almost entirely of mercenaries were the arenas in which national formation had been arrested: Renaissance Italy and the Thirty Years' War.

If you look at the dynamics of France in the 14th century, it was basically a crazy-quilt of conflicting Duchies: Berry, Anjou, Burgundy, Brittany, Normandy, and even the petty kingdom of Navarre. There was very little impetus for unification because the monarchy was weak; whereas, England had a series of strong kings (or at least strong ones alternating with weak ones). It would seem that centralization played a part in patriotism in the late Middle-ages.