Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[LadyBrooke]

To throw out a metaphor (which I'm a big fan of) consider Eru as the parents in the equation, the Valar as the eldest siblings, Elves in the middle, and Men as the slightly spoiled bratty youngest sibling (Note: I don't think all youngest siblings are brats).

Now if you're the eldest sibling, and you notice the brat is beating the door to the room you and your middle sibling are in and trying to beat you all up, if you're smart you're not going to simply go over and beat the twerp over the head because then you'll be in trouble. No, what you do is make sure that you look like the victim here. Viola! Problem solved without you getting in trouble, and possibly making you look like a model child.

[Vultur]

OK, thanks, that makes sense.

(I had always wondered if the herald of Manwe was stretching the truth a bit with the 'none of the Valar etc. etc.' quote...)

[the phantom]

Didn't Tolkien say that Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans had put together the greatest army the world had ever seen?

Now, wouldn't that include any army that Melkor ever had? And the army that came from Valinor to finally put down Angband?

If so, how can we assert that the Valar were capable of dealing with the situation?

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times. Perhaps they would have succeeded if Mandos hadn't doomed them to failure.

If the herald had said "For none of the Valar will thou overcome..." it would've been more accurate.

Unless of course he was referring to the fact that Melkor and his works and stain could never be completely eradicated by Feanor, but seeing as not even the Valar could do that it hardly seems like a point worth making.

[Findegil]

Some seperated points:
About Elrond and Maglor: Elrond was at the time of the war porbably old enough to take his own decissions and go on with independant actions. Such as taking part in a gathering of forces when his forster-father held back.

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

This seems wrong to me in two ways. The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

Anyway as often the quote is not perfectly clear as we have to define first what "overcome" means. And seeing the history of Arda the quote was never falsified: Non of the Valar was ever overcome by any of the children of Eru without help from other Ainur.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times.

But the Valar still in Valinor weren't incarnate. They couldn't have been attacked in the first place. Melkor was stuck in his incarnate form (as the Morgoth) permanently, due to his corruption of Arda, and couldn't change or renew his form. Even when Gandalf, a mere Maia had his body killed, he could return as if nothing had happened (he was allowed to by the Valar, but the power to do so was in himself).

If the Valar did choose to make themselves incarnate they could make themselves into almost unbeatable foes. And if they ever got injured they could just change body. It's not part of them the same way that it is for the Children of Illuvatar. I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again. Morgoth stayed in his body because that was the only body he could have.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

It depends upon the degree of incarnation. The Valar never did more than wrap themselves in physical forms, where as Melkor became incarnate to the point that he could be chained up and even executed. Sauron as well manifest himself physically (the Ring) to the point that he could be destroyed beyond repair.

Morgoth was most certainly vulnerable to physical attack, therefore the business of telling Feanor that he couldn't possibly overcome him was a bit silly. Elves killed Balrogs didn't they? And weren't Balrogs the same form of being? We don't read about Balrogs popping back to life immediately after being killed.

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again.

So you agree that Feanor and them could have rendered Morgoth pretty much impotent. If you reduce him to a weak spirit no longer capable of taking over the world, then I'd say you overcame him.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Begging your pardon, but doesn't the very spirit-ness of the Valar make them powerful? I mean, over nature. Melian, a Maia, was able to defend her kingdom by her maze. Imagine if (how many were the Valar and Valier again?) and infinite more Maiar use their spirit powers over nature and such to defend their ground. And the Elves. One mustn't forget that many of them were born under the light of the Trees, which made them extra tougher.

I know you can all argue that the Elves might not be that skilled in war as they were in peace and the arts, but the host of the Valar that came to Beleriand an age before Ar Pharazon must have had some pretty good swords at least.

[Pitchwife]

Lindale says it: power over nature. The Valar shaped the face of Arda. When you can build mountains, rule the Ocean, control tempests and what not else, you don't need swords and armies to deal with a mad king and a couple of hundred thousand (or even a million) warriors - ifyou are allowed to. And whether or not the Valar and Maiar could be killed , Ar-Pharazôn and his lot certainly could.

[littlemanpoet]

The Valar had enough power. This was not a matter of power, but of authority. The Numenoreans were Children of Iluvatar; the Valar had no right over their fate; so Manwe rightly stepped aside and asked Iluvatar to deal with His children Himself. Case closed.