Dwarves are not heroes?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

In The Council of Elrond Gloin tells the council how the dwarves rejected Sauron's bribe. They rejected wealth, safety, and even the dwarve rings Sauron possessed.

Also the dwarves of Erebor served as a stalwart against Sauron, protecting the West.

Only got time for a short reply but the Dwarves refusal to make any concessions to Sauron might not be with primarily "heroic" or "noble" motivations. They probably didn't do it to save the West or to protect innocent Hobbits but rather to save themselves. Remember, they knew Sauron the Deceiver from way back when and expected him to break any promise as soon as it fitted him. As a fiercely independent group they'd hate to be subjugated to anybody anyway, be they good or bad.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

At the time Tolkien began The Hobbit the Dwarves in his legendarium were conceived as being not merely morally dubious, but (if not as wicked as Orcs) then compulsively selfish, dishonest and untrustworthy, their antecedents being Andvari and Regin/Mimir of Norse legend. It was The Hobbit itself which led Tolkien to rehabilitate them somewhat in the Quenta Silmarillion of 1937; and the LR which brought Dwarves (or at least Durin's Folk) solidly into the 'mostly good' column in later Silmarillion texts.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that it's well to remember that at the time of the Council of Elrond, Dáin has made no reply to Sauron's demand. In fact, Glóin's declared reason for attending the council is "...to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings." In fact, Dáin's actions up to that point are much what one would expect from Tolkien's dwarves: careful and considered, neither accepting nor refusing out of hand a demand from a powerful adversary. I think it interesting that Glóin gives good reasons for distrusting Sauron, implying that had he not betrayed the dwarves in the past they might accept his offer, but he also suggests strong motives to accept and avert a threat.

Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old... We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield...
LR p.235 (HarperCollins edition)

Now, the heroic course would be simply to refuse; the cowardly path would be to accept, but the sensible thing to do would be to play for time while finding out the implications of the choice. That is what the Dwarves of Erebor actually do.

Gimli is definitely a hero in several ways: he acts in a way that he thinks honourable despite overpowering fear at the Paths of the Dead, which is a modern view of courage; he is elevated by his adoration of Galadriel like a courtly hero of the High Middle Ages, and he slaughters his enemies in large numbers at the Hornburg like an early-medieval Germanic hero, becoming a powerful lord like Beowulf. One flower, however, does not make a spring, and in general Tolkien's description of Dwarves is as clannish, secretive and possessive, both of wealth and valuable items and of their rights. Gandalf says of Thorin in The Quest of Erebor that "...his heart was hot with brooding on his wrongs, and the loss of the treasure of his forefathers, and burdened too with the duty of revenge upon Smaug that he had inherited. Dwarves take such duties very seriously." In Appendix A to LR (Durin's Folk), Tolkien says "... Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights."

However, Tolkien's comments in The Hobbit stand as an element in his theme throughout that work of ironically playing with the ideals and language of ancient and modern heroism. Nothing that Thorin does is inconsistent with medieval heroism: revenge, pride, even greed for money are all aspects of heroes like Beowulf, and one of Tolkien's aims in introducing bourgeois, Edwardian Bilbo into their world is to show up some of the flaws in the early-medieval model of heroic conduct. In fact, the refusal of Thorin and Company to go to Bilbo's aid is not only unheroic, but mirrors a passage in Beowulf in which, the hero having gone into the dragon's lair alone, his trusted bodyguard do not follow him. Eventually they are berated by the only one of their number to accompany his lord (contrary to his orders), who reminds them of obligations forgotten and boasts unfulfilled. Tolkien makes the comment as narrator, there being no suitable character present.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

the LR which brought Dwarves (or at least Durin's Folk) solidly into the 'mostly good' column in later Silmarillion texts.

Is there such a column? It always seemed to me Tolkien painted all his "races" with a certain moral ambiguity, although each deals with this differently. Even the elves - if they seem "mostly good" in LoTR, they have a dark enough past and give the appearance of a people who have learned from their history, with the combination of wisdom and restraint, a sort of refinement, which is different from the - youth? vigor? - of groups that have never questioned themselves. Dwarves are more straightforward, perhaps; more prone to justify past errors rather than mourn them - but now I'm getting dangerously close to drawing 7th age comparisons, so I'll be quiet.

To tie it back to heroism, I've always seen something heroic about this touch of tragedy - for instance, among the Dúnedain and the elves - of having risen above a darker past, though unable to undo it/recover what was destroyed, and that is something which I haven't seen portrayed in dwarves (although I haven't read all there is to read, so I might indeed have missed it).

Originally Posted by WCH

(There is a hint iof evidence, IMO, that during the writing of The Hobbit and the earliest stages of writing the LR, Tolkien envisioned the Misty Mountains as identical to the Ered Luin; there was a subsequent displacemant of the Third Age geography to the eastward.)

This might amount to a hijack (spin off thread?) but that's interesting - I had wondered if that was possible, myself. What evidence are you thinking of?

[Aiwendil]

It's worth pointing out that in the War of the Last Alliance Dwarves fought on Sauron's side

Not many, though:

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yeah, but you can bet that the ones who weren't fighting were making a fortune in the arms trade.......

The fact that "few fought upon either side" is significant in itself. Dwarves (mostly) just don't do causes.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Yeah, but you can bet that the ones who weren't fighting were making a fortune in the arms trade.......

Yes, Tolkien does mention shady Dwarves doing a brisk arms trade with Orcs in 'The Hobbit'.

[Groin Redbeard]

First off, I would like to thank Kent2010 for coming up with such an original topic. I hope that this thread won't die anytime soon!

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The fact that "few fought upon either side" is significant in itself. Dwarves (mostly) just don't do causes.

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival. A good king must look after his subjects first and foremost, otherwise he loses respect and is no longer considered a good king. When Aule made the Dwarves it is stated that he made them hardier than any other race; this does not just pertain to their physical aspects but also their attitudes: they are wary of strangers and this means potential threats.

Dwarves are quick to anger and to friendship. A very hasty folk, treat them with kindness and they will be your friends, treat them with harshness and they will not forget it. We see this example with Mim when Turin and company force him to keep them in his home at Amon Rudh. Mîm tolerates the outlaws, and although he never loves Túrin, the dwarf at least comes to respect him, though not his companions. I'm sure I don't need to remind y'all how Mim had his revenge on Turin and his friends.

Dwarves may be invested in their own self interest, but this doesn't mean that they won't fight for a cause. WCH points out well that some Dwarves fought against Sauron in the Last Alliance (it is interesting to know, however, that when Sauron first emerged from Mordor the Dwarves simply locked themselves up in their impenetrable underground halls)as well as against Morgoth at The Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

When Tolkien talks about Dwarves not being heroes, my interpretation is that they will not do anything hasty for others. It wouldn't be in their best interest to put themselves out on a limb for Bilbo in the dragon's lair without good reason. After all what good will it do? Not to say that they won't put themselves out on a limb for someone at all, the War of Dwarves and Orcs is an example of that; even if it was to avenge one of their own.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There is also a practical reason for dwarves reluctance
to become involved in others affairs, the combination of
their "hastiness" when provoked and slow birth rate.
Even more then elves, they can't afford the sort of losses
men or orcs can in protracted wars. (In a way reminiscent
of Germany's problem as World War II dragged on, vis-a-vis
the U.S.S.R. and U.S.A.).

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Nice thinking, WCH. I always took the Dwarves' selfishness to be essential in their survival. The reason why, in my opinion, that Dwarves usually don't take to causes of Elves or Men is survival.

I also think it's reasonable to ask do the other races really take up others causes? You do have the 'Last Alliance,' but speaking strictly about the Lord of the Rings, can't you call all races rather selfish?

Celeborn tells the Fellowship that Lorien's communication has just been with Rivendell during these 'dark years.' And of course you see the tensions between him and Gimli. Before recognizing Gimli wasn't all that bad would Celeborn have sent his army to help the dwarves and men of Dale? Doubt it.

I think Gildor has a haughty and pretty self-indulgent opinion of Elves that showed in his meeting with the hobbits.

Gondor and Rohan show a clear distrust and avoidance towards Lorien. And even though Denethor sends Boromir to Rivendell I'm not convinced Gondor would stick its neck out for Rivendell or vice versa.

Elrond and Galadriel play an important role in the quest, helping Aragorn, and in many ways breaking that barrier of distrust between the races, but what other Elves can we say feel the same? Legolas and E&E to a lesser extent?

The only strong bonds seem to remain primarily between the same races. Rohan and Gondor, Rivendell and Lorien (maybe Mirkwood?) and I've read that in times of trouble the Dwarves could set aside their own conflicts and ban together.

By the the Lord of the Rings at least, if someone can call the dwarves selfish, can't you say the same about other races? There are the Elronds and Aragorns who do think of the whole and show a care for all races. But there are also many Denethors who look primarily at their peoples' self-interests.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Only got time for a short reply but the Dwarves refusal to make any concessions to Sauron might not be with primarily "heroic" or "noble" motivations.

Their refusal might not have been, but what about their actions? And that is preventing Sauron (and earlier Smaug) from burning the West. Also, the attention and resources the dwarves (and Dale Men) take away from Sauron by resisting him. The dwarves actions saved lives, question is does their motivation matter, or are they heroic enough for fighting Sauron?

Remember, they knew Sauron the Deceiver from way back when and expected him to break any promise as soon as it fitted him. As a fiercely independent group they'd hate to be subjugated to anybody anyway, be they good or bad.

There could be something there, because from my memory Sauron only tries to strike a deal with the Dwarves. He did manage to get the Haradrim and other Men to join him, but it's only the dwarves he tries to set up a deal. He wants Gondor destroyed, and must think it's useless to win over any Elves, as he attacks Lorien. Yet, he tries to win over the dwarves, so he has to think they can be more willing allies (or drawn to his side) than other people?

William, thank you for that information. I know Tolkien changed a lot, reworked his story, but I don't know too many of the details - like when and what changes occured. That was very helpful.

Squatter:

One flower, however, does not make a spring, and in general Tolkien's description of Dwarves is as clannish, secretive and possessive, both of wealth and valuable items and of their rights.

But that does make exceptions to the normal 'image' of dwarves. And I'm wondering if we can say there are other exceptions, or is Gimli the diamond in the rough? What about his father - Gloin? What about Dain?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth pointing out that in the War of the Last Alliance Dwarves fought on Sauron's side, although those of Durin's Folk did not.

When we turn to the sack of Doriath, we find that while Tolkien had moderated his early view of Dwarves, the actions of those who murdered Thingol and destroyed his kingdom are (in Tolkien's own writings) pretty unambiguously treacherous and wicked (the published version, where Thingol's double-dealing starts it, was an invention by CT/GK). Tolkien in this 'middle period' tried to go with a "Nogrod good, Belegost bad" (or vice-versa) meme: anciently, the "Indrafangs" of Belegost were the Longbeards, and then for a while Nogrod was Khazad-dum, before he decided to remove Thorin's ancestors from Beleriand entirely.

(There is a hint iof evidence, IMO, that during the writing of The Hobbit and the earliest stages of writing the LR, Tolkien envisioned the Misty Mountains as identical to the Ered Luin; there was a subsequent displacemant of the Third Age geography to the eastward.)