Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Mnemosyne]

How does the text imply the sons of Elronds' choice, one way or the other?

[Edit: and I don't want to be too hard on Foster here, but even going with the source material he had he does seem to have published some rather unorthodox opinions. Compare Tolkien's notes in AoTB on "The Sea-bell," specifically on its authorship, with Foster's entry. Tolkien says that it's "highly unlikely" Frodo himself wrote the poem, while Foster suggests that maybe a Fairbairn found a lost text later on and inserted it into the Fourth Age editions of the Red Book. This is all fine and dandy if you're writing fan fiction, but not for a reference work!]

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Somewhere or other T mentions that after Galadriel's departure Celeborn moved to Rivendell and lived with the Sons of Elrond. When or for how long 'tis never said.

[Galin]

In revised editions Note On The Shire Records states that though Elrond had departed his sons '... long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.'

I think that Foster's entry is not simply based on the sons not sailing with Elrond however, but arguably Elrond's and Aragorn's words from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' Aragorn responds that the years of Elrond's abiding run short at last, '... and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'. Elrond answers 'Truly' but notes 'soon as we account the years'. Earlier in the N. Kings it is also noted that the children of Elrond had the choice to pass '...with him from the Circles of the World; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.'

Of course the option remains that 'with him' means 'as he did' or similar, but especially the conversation with Aragorn seems very much about timing to my mind. There's an interesting draft text called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: '...was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

Again, I realize one can work around this, but taken all together (not that Foster had this last bit to work with) Tolkien has (IMO) at least left the impression that to stay in Middle-earth when Elrond departed reflects the choice of mortality. Of course letter 153 often pops up, that they delayed their choice. Not that I toss out letters (sent or not), but The Lord of the Rings is a different animal, and the text is, in some sense at least, 'later' than the letter. Perhaps people disagree that there is the suggestion that they chose mortality here, but...

... RF used 'seem' at least

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

Yes, I was thinking this as well. The reason why Arwen rejects the possibility is because she made the choice to be mortal by marrying Aragorn.

As far as we know, Elladan and Elrohir didn't decide to marry mortals, so there was never any action on their part to indicate that they had decided to become Men - unless not leaving with Elrond is definitely the only requirement for them to become mortal.

Arwen had a reason for choosing to stay behind: Aragorn. She couldn't marry Aragorn and take him back to the Undying Lands, so she had to stay. What incentive could Elladan and Elrohir have had to stay behind if it automatically made them mortal?

[Galin]

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

[Galin]

Tolkien's letter seems to imply that the Sons hadn't made up their minds yet, but they arguably would have also been aware (being born in TA 130) that by Aragorn's day the 'choice must soon' be laid upon them -- referring to the time of Elrond's abiding.

Granted the Elvish perspective of years is different. But their Mother had already sailed, their sister chosen mortality, and 'now' their father was soon to sail -- but still no choice? If they were leaning towards immortality one would have thought this was a good time to leave Middle-earth, with their father.

Of course I'm not claiming that there is only one interpretation. One could argue the text could well mean 'with him' in the sense of choose immortality as he did, though at some later time. Letter 153 could well be the 'answer' despite what (I think) is suggested by other description.

I don't think any thread has ever solved this issue, and perhaps Tolkien would have wanted it that way.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However the "long" Tale of Years, TY4, although submitted to A&U, turned out not to be the final word- JRRT made many, many alterations between that version and the historiy printed as Appendices A and B.

I think that this is one of those cases where we have insufficient data, and where quite likely Tolkien himself couldn't make up his mind- like the revised Law of Succession in Numenor. T also had a characteristic habit when referring to something already described of expressing himself elliptically or deceptively categorically- leading in extreme cases to things like the Great Balrog Wings Flame War, or in lesser cases to the Treebeard-or-Bombadil-Eldest affair, or the all-Elves-had-dark-hair shibboleth.

Personally I think E&E eventually sailed West, because of their mother. That would mean that they could up to a point delay their choice-- but I doubt Tolkien really ever thought the question through.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

[Galin]

There's an interesting note from H&S in entry...

'She was not yet weary of her days - In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963, Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to men ... is bitter to receive.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Ring's Reader's Companion

[Mithadan]

This is a question with no easy resolution. From the references quoted above it seems clear that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were granted the choice to be numbered among the Eldar or Men. The portions of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen quoted by Galin mean to me simply that they may choose to be mortal and remain in Middle Earth until they die or they may choose to take ship into the West. I do not think Elrond's departure has much to do with it. Arwen's comment 'that choice is long over' means only that she had already made her choice and had to live and die with it.

Elladan and Elrohir's fate is a matter of intriguing speculation. They loved Men enough to fight in Gondor with Aragorn, yet they loved their parents as well. Having risked all to enter Moria to save their mother, I wonder if it would have been too difficult for them to choose to stay in Middle Earth and never see her again.

There appears to be another potential contradiction that is not addressed in this thread to this point. The Akallabeth relates that the "Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny." Elrond chooses to be an Elf and Elros chooses to be a Man. This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

This is an excellent question.

I don't really have much of an answer for it, but one thing that comes to mind is maybe it has something to do with the Elven/Valar ultimate envying of Men in their ability to escape the Circles of the World. The Valar maybe persisted in giving the children of Elrond the choice because of their own (the Valar's) possibly growing desire to escape.